Weekend Warriors and Lithium

manyman297

We’re closing in on our first camping season with our 2021 400 BD. It’s mainly been boondocked in and what I’m noticing is that I still don’t see a need for lithium. I’ve seen many on here that have upgraded and my assumption is that these are people Boondocking off grid for several days. 

We’re mainly weekend warriors averaging 2-3 nights out. Our solar keeps the battery topped off and we’ve never been in a situation where we had drained the battery (below 50%). Admittedly most of that camping was done in sunny weather but are people really using that many AHs over a weekend of camping to justify lithium? Or am I missing something? I may bite the bullet and get an accessory solar panel to help if the camper is under a tree but lithium seems so expensive. 

N7SHG_Ham

If you don't Boondock extensively for long periods, and you don't plan to keep camper for many years it probably isn't worth it.

It does add many more usable AH in same space, lightens battery weight, charges much faster, allows much larger draws without affecting the battery. If you are on shore power most of time, you probably do not get much benefit.

I haven't rushed out and made the swap on my 400, but might consider it when the OEM AGM batteries reach end of life.

bergger

I do not see the need for lithium as the batteries in our 2021 400 have more than kept up with our electrical needs.  Rarely do they get below 90%.  We to mostly camp in sunny conditions and usually camp for 2-9 nights.  We also have a solar suitcase to use if parked in the shade but so far in the two summers we've owned the trailer have not ever used it.  I suppose if you camp in cloudy conditions constantly and pull lots of power for this or that it may be worth it.  Or if you live full time in your trailer and need the benefits of lithium.  But part of camping for me means getting away from the computers and all the electrical devices and appliances we use at home.  I just need to use some lights, the water pump and the occasional use of the radio and maybe a movie now and then.   When camping I'd rather cook for a few hours using the Dutch oven than using an electric skillet or crockpot.  

Marceline

A lithium battery is a game-changer for those of us with a 2way (no propane) fridge. 

ScottG

I've camped up to eight days straight with just a 100aH wet cell battery and a 100W solar panel. I've also done 3-4 day trips on just battery (albeit it was new, very healthy battery). In both scenarios I broke camp still having power to spare.

Much depends on your needs. I run the fridge on propane, rarely use the Alde for cabin heat, avail myself of campground showers, and don't care for a lot of light. I don't feel like I scrimp on power to the point of denying myself, I just don't have very demanding requirements. At this point in time, I can't see dropping a grand for Lithium when I can get five years out of a basic wet cell for a fraction of the cost. YMMV.

manyman297

Marceline said:

A lithium battery is a game-changer for those of us with a 2way (no propane) fridge. 

We have a 2-way fridge as well but the solar seems to keep it running just fine. Again, we haven't camped in many cloudy conditions so maybe it's different for you. The fridge pulls 40-50 watts so as long as your solar is generating 50+ watts during the day you're only using battery during the night (for the most part). And we upgraded to the Maxx Fan so our daytime power draw is even less.

I think the lowest our battery has gotten was 70% and by 10am the next day it was 100% because of the solar. We're fairly new to RVing (about 3 years) and can't imagine how people did it back in the day without a generator when there was no solar, battery capacity was low and lighting was incandescent. 

Da_Birds

Weekend warriors here too and have been considering upgrading to lithium. We typically camp in shaded sites that do not get direct sun for much of the day or at all. Portable solar is not the answer because most often there is not a whole lot of direct sun to capture and I don't want to spend my day chasing patches of sun. On top of that about 75% of the days we camped this year it rained. Needless to say our solar hasn't been very useful so far.

We were able to Boondock for 2 nites with our 130AH flooded battery but we were really conscious of our power usage and charge level in our battery. In short, we did not find it enjoyable to have to "babysit" the battery all weekend. Below is a picture of one of the primitive camp sites we like to frequent. We like these sites because they have lake access about 75' down a trail where we use our kayaks. Not only is it shaded but the roof top solar is facing away from the sun.

manyman297

It seems where people camp is really the deciding factor. Again, we camp in the summertime out west. Most days are sunny...and summer days are long. Different story if you live up North I guess. 

If lithium comes down in cost even more (which it will) I can see upgrading once our AGMs conk out. If not for the capacity but for the weight savings and simplicity of knowing we can run them down much further and charge them up much faster. But right now I think the cost outweighs the benefits for us. 

VictoriaP

Da_Birds said:

Portable solar is not the answer because most often there is not a whole lot of direct sun to capture and I don't want to spend my day chasing patches of sun. 

…

In short, we did not find it enjoyable to have to "babysit" the battery all weekend. 

This sums it up for me. If I lived and camped in a very sunny area and had sufficient permanently mounted solar (which would have to be much greater wattage than the factory puts on a 320), I’d probably feel differently. The price of decent quality LiFePo4 batteries (if you don’t stick with Battleborn) has dropped significantly just in the last two years, and it’s becoming a more affordable solution for those of us in situations where “just add more solar” simply isn’t a one size fits all answer.

Denny16

I think battery use and requirements is like water use, and depends on the individual use and requirements.  What works for one TaB owner might not work for someone else.  The 200 amp AGM battery we have keeps up with our current requirements.  Thst said, when it’s time to change them out, an upgrade to lithium and a larger inverter to allow use of a microwave whilst boondocking will be on the agenda.  

Meanwhile, the current battery keeps up nicely with our current use requirements, which include runnjng the 2-way AC/DC fridge, night time Alde use and interior lighting.  Water use is more of a limit than battery power.
cheers

Marceline

manyman297 said:

Marceline said:

A lithium battery is a game-changer for those of us with a 2way (no propane) fridge. 

We have a 2-way fridge as well but the solar seems to keep it running just fine. Again, we haven't camped in many cloudy conditions so maybe it's different for you. The fridge pulls 40-50 watts so as long as your solar is generating 50+ watts during the day you're only using battery during the night (for the most part). And we upgraded to the Maxx Fan so our daytime power draw is even less.

You have a 400, so you started with something like a 200aH AGM battery + rooftop solar. That is not the norm, especially for the older T@Bs. So yes, you are "missing something."

I bought a 2013 T@B CS with a 2way fridge and a 55aH AGM battery + 100w suitcase solar. One cloudy day and I was done for... no chance of keeping the fridge running. So when I saw that Costco had a 90aH LiON Energy battery for a "reasonable" price I jumped on it. I was able to triple my effective battery capacity without increasing the weight of my trailer (actually reducing it). It was the best thing I've bought for my trailer. And yes, a few weeks ago I wrung every aH out of that battery when I was parked in the redwoods for four days.

Hope this clears things up for you.

Denny16

With an older TaB Marceline, you made a good choice, and I would have done the same.  You definitely get more bang for your buck with a lithium upgrade.  Mellow Yellow did the same, and given the camping situations for both of you (in forests and wooded areas) you need the extra capacity with the limited solar charging available, especially during the late fall, when the sun is low.  Da_Birds would also benefit from a lithium battery, given their choice of camping locations.  Choosing the right battery is very situational, and needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis.
cheers

manyman297

Marceline said:

manyman297 said:

Marceline said:

A lithium battery is a game-changer for those of us with a 2way (no propane) fridge. 

We have a 2-way fridge as well but the solar seems to keep it running just fine. Again, we haven't camped in many cloudy conditions so maybe it's different for you. The fridge pulls 40-50 watts so as long as your solar is generating 50+ watts during the day you're only using battery during the night (for the most part). And we upgraded to the Maxx Fan so our daytime power draw is even less.

You have a 400, so you started with something like a 200aH AGM battery + rooftop solar. That is not the norm, especially for the older T@Bs. So yes, you are "missing something."

I bought a 2013 T@B CS with a 2way fridge and a 55aH AGM battery + 100w suitcase solar. One cloudy day and I was done for... no chance of keeping the fridge running. So when I saw that Costco had a 90aH LiON Energy battery for a "reasonable" price I jumped on it. I was able to triple my effective battery capacity without increasing the weight of my trailer (actually reducing it). It was the best thing I've bought for my trailer. And yes, a few weeks ago I wrung every aH out of that battery when I was parked in the redwoods for four days.

Hope this clears things up for you.

Yeah, in your case things are much different. I tend to be in the 400 mindset when I post a question. 200 AH would be the upgrade I’d do if we went lithium. 

rcarlson1957

I found an added benefit to switching to 100ah lithium battery. I have a 2018 T@B 320S with the 3 way Norcold frig. When we had the stock battery and set it on 12v (sorry but wind drive with it on propane) going down the road the battery would be dead by the time we arrived after a few hours. Not anymore it still drains the battery but with so much more useable ah it’s not close to dead.  We normally camp at State Parks and have shore power so converter charges battery back up. 

DenverJaguar

We used about 50 amps over two days on our last trip, with no benefit of solar because we had the camper under a tree in the shade. That 50 amps would have been more than the safe capacity of the stock lead acid battery, but it was only 25% of our 200AH lithium capacity. In the future we'll have a solar suitcase, but I enjoy the peace of mind of knowing I can camp with no solar whatsoever and make it at least 5 days before needing to charge the battery. 

tphaggerty

Have 350W of solar plus a 100W suitcase.  Still went to lithium as almost all of our camping here in the northeast is heavily wooded and shaded and literally no solar pickup. We could go 3 or 4 days on the original AGMs, easily 6 or so with the lithiums. Going to add a DC to DC converter to get some charge while towing and still might add a 3rd 100Ah Li at some point. It’s all about how long and where you camp!

Dutch061

tphaggerty said:

It’s all about how long and where you camp!

Which is why I have 400 Ah of Battleborn, no more worries about being a miser. 

Brad

ColoradoSun

We have found the stock AGM batteries in the 2021 400 Boondock to be sufficient for our use. With the 3-way refrigerator running on propane, factory rooftop solar and a 100W portable solar panel to supplement as needed, we've never dropped below 70% state of charge. That includes the overnight use of a CPAP running off the inverter. The capacity of our waste tanks are more likely to limit how long we can boondock.

rh5555

I'm referencing an old discussion here, but pertinent: https://tabforum.nucamprv.com/#/discussion/9940/agm-battery-depth-of-discharge-myth-busted

Like Lithium, with AGM batteries you can safely discharge to 20% without compromising their life.  Wet cell batteries not so much.

tphaggerty

rh5555 said:

I'm referencing an old discussion here, but pertinent: https://tabforum.nucamprv.com/#/discussion/9940/agm-battery-depth-of-discharge-myth-busted

Like Lithium, with AGM batteries you can safely discharge to 20% without compromising their life.  Wet cell batteries not so much.

But, depth of discharge is only one part. LiFePo batteries have a very flat discharge profile, essentially flat until about 10% or less charged. This is a bonus for 12v appliances like the fridge and heater, at least in my opinion, they both run better for longer on Li. When my AGMs were below about 40%, both fridge and Alde struggle quite a bit. 

Denny16

Yes, this is the issue with dropping the charge level down past 40% on AGM batteries, you no longer have a 12VDC output.  Once it drops below 11.9VDC, the Alde quits working.  

Lithium batteries, as pointed out, hold a output level of +12VDC even when discharged down to 20% or less.  It is a matter of not how far below normal charge you can take a battery, but how long it can maintain a minimum 12VDC output.

That said, I was concerned about the 200 amp AGM keeping the 2-way fridge going whilst off grid (boondocking).  I discovered with minimal Solar charging during the day, the AGM maintained about 60% of its charge and a +12VDC output.  The fridge stayed cold during a 4-day adventure when the local power grid was shut down to prevent fires caused by high wind knocking down live power wires.
cheers

Dutch061

The only thing that I will say is that if you were to ever go with Lithium, you would never look back. In fact, you will wonder why you didn't have them to start with. They are expensive, especially if you buy Battleborn but they (Battleborn) have an excellent reputation, warranty, support, made in the USA (at least assembled and tested in the USA) and thousands of batteries in place. Which are the reasons I chose them. 

Again, it comes down to how you camp whether it is the right decision or not. For my wife and I, my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner.

Brad

AnOldUR

Dutch061 said:

...  my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. Brad

My only regret is the weight of my two 125Ah AGM's. Cost and function wise, no regrets. So far they have performed perfectly to fit my needs. As the price comes down, I'll consider upgrading my T@B to Lithium and using the AGM's along with solar as an emergency power source at home. But I don't expect it to happen anytime soon.

jschmier

A load test indicated my 3-year old original AGM’s were marginally OK and mutimeter measured a resting voltage of about 12.2 with a 60% SOC.  The Norcold 2-way interior light and the circulation fan were working and everything else in the 400 also appeared to work, however, the Norcold would not cool.  I think under a load, there was enough power to run some things but not enough to handle the initial surge required to start the compressor. Installed an Ampere 200 AH lithium and Victron Battery Sense per Will Prowse for temperature protection. With Amazon discount, only cost about $200 more than new AGMs with almost twice the power and a more usable discharge profile.  Haven’t had the problem since.

Denny16

I agree, whilst more expensive initially, lithium are a better investment and give you more bang for the buck.  We plan to upgrade to lithium when the AGM (which is only about 18 months old) needs replacing, or we decide we want a longer off grid camping time. 

Looking at Battle Born, Renogy and Victron Blue, along with the appropriate BMS system, like the Victron VE.Bus BMS.  The cost is around $1,000 per 100 amps, but will be the last battery system I will need to get for the TaB 400.
cheers

Samrollseyes

@rcarlson1957, I have the same make and model trailer as you. I'm fighting altitude making my Norcold fridge work on propane (my base altitude is 4800 feet) so unless I'm hooked to shore power, my fridge is a fancy cooler. I'm looking at upgrading my battery to lithium (I'm still running on the original battery) if nothing else, maybe I'll get an extra day of fridge power. 

Dutch061

@Samrollseyes

If you are trying to operate a 3-way refrigerator on 12 VDC you are going to need a lot of Ah. If memory serves me correctly, the 3-way refrigerator draws 10 Amps plus on DC. Unlike a compressor refrigerator, this does not cycle on and off, which means in 24 hours you would consume 240 Ah of batteries without using ANYTHING else.

Brad

Samrollseyes

Yes, you are right; I'm just hoping to get "top off" chill.

MadCityJack

Since my retirement we started extending TAB dry camping outings to 4 nights and 5 days and we are even planning a 10 day outing. We upgraded our lead acid 90 ah battery to a Battleborn 100 ah late last summer and have felt much more secure about our battery capacity.  I've only used a multimeter to measure and with our limited solar panels (135 watts total), we never got below 65-70% capacity and this was in mostly shaded areas in Wisconsin State Parks.  

Given LiFePO4's higher voltage, inside lights are a bit brighter and I think my 3 way Norcold starts more readily when using propane, but that is a feeling rather than an objective assessment.  

Another thing I've read about Lithium batteries is their lower charging resistance/greater efficiency with resultant faster charging with solar compared to lead acid batteries.  I did not test this but wonder if anyone else here has done so?  

So impressed with LiFePO4 batteries, I bought a second Battleborn on sale as a backup.  I am not sure if I want to install two batteries inside our camper, but I am pondering that option.  They are light enough to readily swap--if needed.  I like the idea of perhaps having a small 12v refrigerator in my tow vehicle that could run independently on the second LiFePO4 battery.  

This winter I set both batteries up in parallel in our basement in case I needed some power backup in the event of a grid failure.  I test their SOC regularly and they really haven't budged much over 3 months.  They can be used to power up my EcoFlow River Pro (or any solar "generator), which has a built-in 600 watt inverter.  All together they provide over 3000 watts of backup--minus operating efficiencies.   

rcarlson1957

Samrollseyes


A lot of people go with Battleborn batteries on here. Nice but expensive. I got an 100ah AmpereTime lithium for under $400. To your point for the frig, can search on here for high altitude issue for 3 way. I just like that I can drive down the road now with my 3 way on DC and keep it working till I get to my campsite and when I hook up it brings the battery back up. With my stock battery it would be dead before I arrived. 

morey000

I'm three years in, and have never drained my stock 75Ahr battery.  I've got a 100w solar panel and camp in the SW where it's pretty much always sunny.  I've got the 3-way fridge running on propane so my only use is lighting, the ceiling fan, and cranking tunes from the Jensen (plus Alde and fridge current drainage).  

That said- with the price of 100Ahr Lithium batteries down to nearly $300, I'm just gonna' throw one in for this season so I've got nothing to worry about if it's cloudy for a week.  They've gotten so cheap, I can't see ever buying an AGM.