Boondocking Bust! Where did we newbies go wrong?

renesadae

SusanD said:

...I've come to realize that it's not a small house, it's a camper. 

LOL, @SusanD. This summarizes my biggest lesson from this boondocking trip. On the drive home I looked up how to optimize cooler use since it's what I ended up having to completely rely on. But from these discussions, I'm also learning how we were not in a good position to be using the frig like we envisioned, even with good sun.

renesadae

@Denny16 So a 200aH lithium should allow us to get 4-5 days of boondocking in the shade w/attentive 2-way frig use?

renesadae

Sooo..does this mean we actually have only a 75W solar panel???

Denny16

@renesadae, a 75/10 is good for 100 watts of solar, and the 75/15 is good to up to 200 watts of solar panel input.

@Grumpy_G, whilst the battery 50% discharge rule is a bit of a RV Internet myth, the issue with taking a 12VDC lead acid battery below 50% is the voltage then drops below 12VDC.  Circuits that require 12VDC will not work correctly, like the Alde, which will shut down when the voltage drops much below 11.9 VDC.

Second, constantly draining a lead acid battery below 11.9 VDC can lead to chemical issues in the battery and damage in the form of swelling in the battery case.  

The AGM fairs better and holds 12VDC longer past 50% but not much below 75% discharge.  The lithium is best here for deep discharge, as it holds 12 VDC almost to the end of its discharge cycle, at around 90%, at which time a lithium battery will shut down, when they are properly regulated.  

So for extended Extended Boondock or off grid camping, Lithium gives you more useable volts and deeper battery discharge than other types of battereis, whilst having the best case size and weight per 100 amps of battery.
Cheers 

db_cooper

@renesadae
For the most part, we only boondock, and have found we use the camper more fall through spring in the PNW.  While we have the propane fridge, and have been happy with it,  it struggles in hot temps to keep the food at a safe temperature.  For fall through spring trips a cooler in the TV will not need much ice.  We also bought a cheap Costco electric cooler to plug into the trailer, but honestly haven't used it much for that.

I upgraded the stock battery to 2 6v golf cart  batteries  and they are still going strong after 4 years.  Others will tout lithium, but for our cold weather camping and the batteries being outside the camper, they are perfect for us.  And they are cheap. We can get 4-5 days running the camper at ski areas in below freezing temps, and they've not dropped below 12.2v.

We tend to move camp every 3-4 days, so recharging the batteries while driving has worked well for us, but we do carry a 100w solar panel.  Bought a 2200 generator, but only use it for power outages at home now.  

You'll figure out what works best for you, but remember, most other trailers have heaters that use a blower and that takes a lot of battery.  You still bought one of the best boondocking trailers out there.

Edited to add a couple things. Most food we take doesn't require really cold temps to be safe.  The little meat we take, we freeze and let that help keep the fridge cold while thawing.

Also, while you can draw lithium down further without damaging them, golf cart batteries can withstand depletion a few times as well.  

Marceline

I've owned a clamshell T@B for 4+ years and I mostly camp without hookups. Here are some things that I've learned. 
-I estimate that the fridge consumes about 30-40aH per day. Since your battery capacity is 64aH (per your SmartShunt settings) you have enough power to run the fridge for about 1 day if there is no power going back into the battery. I started with a 55aH AGM battery and made do for a couple of years, but with a 100w solar panel it was really only possible to keep the fridge running during peak summer with long days and lots of sunshine. I have a 90aH lithium battery now.
-It is really important to begin any trip where you will not have hookups with an absolutely full battery and a cold fridge. When you get home from a trip, top up your battery from shorepower and then turn the main battery switch off. When you're getting ready to leave on a trip, plug into shorepower and chill your fridge from shorepower.
-Check to be sure that the charge line from your tow vehicle to the 7way plug is wired correctly. There have been cases where people have discovered that the charge line wasn't wired.
-When camping, open your fridge as infrequently as possible. Every time you open the fridge the compressor will start running, consuming power. Consider putting your beer in an ice chest. Monitor the fridge temp remotely with something like this: https://amzn.to/3mUJW4k
-Your clamshell has a solenoid switch somewhere on the hatch that opens and closes the flow of propane to the stove. That switch consumes power as long as the hatch is open. If you want to leave the hatch open, use some kind of clamp or other mechanism to close the switch except when cooking.
-If the ambient temperature is under ~50 degrees at night, just turn off the fridge when you go to bed. Your fridge is effectively outside and will maintain temperature overnight (use a remote temperature sensor to track this).
-I hate to say it, but if you plan to do a lot of boondocking in PNW during fall/winter/spring you may want to consider a generator. Alternatively, you will need much more battery capacity.
-As someone else mentioned, the settings on your SmartShunt are incorrect. Per page 11 of the SmartShunt manual the "Charged voltage" should set at 13.2v for a lead acid battery.

VictoriaP

renesadae said:

@VictoriaP We did travel down to Yosemite and lucked out on the sunny window from our first day of travel and on. We did end up with a few scattered clouds on the last day, but that’s when we actually had our first night of not losing power. However, yes, I am seeing from the responses here that our 100W panel alone won’t help us boondock.

Yosemite isn’t really far enough south to get ideal solar collection at this time of year. But it’s certainly better than further north. The angle of the sun to the panel can make a huge difference, and full direct sun will always be better than partial, overcast, or shaded.

I’m actually testing a couple of solar panels today using my Goal Zero Yeti 400 lithium battery pack. One panel is a good quality Sunpower 100 watt flexible, the other a brand new 200 watt Bluetti solar suitcase that I just want to confirm works at all. High thin clouds, fairly bright, Puget Sound, no direct sun on the panels at the moment. Battery has a load and is not in Float charging mode.

The 100 watt that I previously tested midsummer under not perfect conditions at 70 watts…currently produces 3 watts.
The 200 watt, as you’d expect from the 100 watt results, is producing 5-6 watts.

Obviously that’s barely a trickle charge from either, and would be near worthless for actually camping at this time of year, in this location, under these skies. So actual conditions do make a pretty dramatic difference. This is why you really can’t assume that just because another owner has camped for years with a single lead acid battery, one solar panel, and a propane fridge, you’ll be able to do the same with the same battery/solar combo in a different place with a 12v fridge. There are lots of variables involved here, and a system that’s perfect for the desert South may not be nearly enough for further North.

(This is why even if I improve my solar & battery setups further, I’ll continue to carry a generator when boondocking.)

Sharon_is_SAM

I forgot about the solenoid on the CS.  They are standard starting with the 2018 models.  

Denny16

Good tips Marceline, but the new 2021 TaB CSS has the newer Danforth compressor fridge that uses quite a bit less power than the original ones did, so battery life is a bit more.  That said, I agree, the OP need a larger AGM or Lithium battery for serious multi-day camping trips off grid.  At least a 100 amp  lithium or 125 amp AGM for starters.
 Cheers 

renesadae

@Denny16  So if we change to a lithium and solar suitcase will we need to change out the solar charge controller too?

We have decided the first upgrade will be the lithium battery. Is there more involved to doing this like the converter and/or charge controller too? Will this be something our dealer has to do, or can we set-up an install with any local RV dealership? 

Mahalo @db_cooper f or sharing your boondocking style and equipment. We anticipate a very similar style PNW Fall/ Spring, summers North/Canada, Winter wherever there’s snow, moving every 3-5 days. With our 2-way and blower the lithium may be best. If we can have the frig staying reasonably cool for frozen foods thawing, and menu adjustments, I think we can rely on the TV coolers for the rest.

@Marceline @Sharon_is_SAM  Ah hah! Our 4 trips all have photo evidence of our CS hatch open 12-15 hrs/d. It’s a favorite part of our T@Baby life! 4th trip Boondocking...oops. Now we know why we had to turn the battery back on to light the stove. And thanks to your repost of the T@gger who posted the simple auto hose trick for shutting off the solenoid switch to leave the hatch open, we can continue our outdoor kitchen enjoyment.

@Marceline @Denny16 MUCH appreciation for noting the incorrect setting and wiring. We have corrected both!

@VitcoriaP Can you please explain more about a “battery pack” plus solar suitcase and what that gives you? And why if that is an improvement why you would still need a generator? Or is it just because you have one, so why not?

VictoriaP

renesadae said:

@VitcoriaP Can you please explain more about a “battery pack” plus solar suitcase and what that gives you? And why if that is an improvement why you would still need a generator? Or is it just because you have one, so why not?

I’m a belt and suspenders type. The more sources of power I have on hand, the better.

Backup batteries of all sizes can be useful to conserve your main trailer battery. Think about using smaller size ones to charge your laptops, phones, etc. Larger size ones (often misnomered as “solar generators” even though they don’t generate energy, just store it)—Goal Zero, Bluetti, Jackery, etc.—are basically larger batteries with inverters built in for 110v output. They can actually be used to charge your trailer battery in a pinch, or can power appliances such as a CPAP, or a 12v cooler. My GZ Yeti 400 was purchased as an emergency power source for outages at home. I have adapters to recharge it via wall power, 12v in the car, or to connect it to portable solar. But it’s also a useful tool for trips. I used it for testing today because the trailer is at the dealer’s for maintenance.

Most people here seem to go up to the larger 1000 or 1500 watt solar generators, which are heavier, but more versatile. They’re very useful units to have, but the caveat is they are way overpriced on an amp hour basis versus simply upgrading your trailer battery.

The generator I have for camping is a tiny 900 watt model that runs for a few hours off a 1 lb propane canister (the green Coleman type). It was bought just to charge the Tab in an emergency, and isn’t powerful enough to run the current Tab A/C units (or my home furnace blower, for that matter). The plan is to carry it for off grid trips, but I’d really prefer to never have to use it. Unfortunately as Marceline noted, in this part of the country, sometimes the amount of solar you can capture isn’t enough, and a generator may be necessary for extended boondocking. 

mntrails

Battery upgrade options also include a pair of 6V golf cart batteries.  These are lead/acid wet cells and are heavy duty deep cycle batteries - heavier than other options typically rated between 210 and 230 aH of which you can easily depend on 50% and they're normally the least expensive option... by far.  They also fit in the front tub of the 2021 and newer 320 Boondocks.  

Personally, I was (and still am!) in learning mode about how I use the T@B and how much battery power is needed.  One characteristic my travels have are that I usually don't boondock in one place more than 2-3 days so there's recharge opportunity while driving or the ability to spend one night with a friend or campsite with electric.  For me, it was an easy choice as I really just wanted to go camping and not have to worry about research on adjustments to the recharge characteristics or changing out a charging controller.  Its just another option to consider...  Good luck! 

Marceline

renesadae said:

@Denny16  So if we change to a lithium and solar suitcase will we need to change out the solar charge controller too?

We have decided the first upgrade will be the lithium battery. Is there more involved to doing this like the converter and/or charge controller too? Will this be something our dealer has to do, or can we set-up an install with any local RV dealership? 

You don't necessarily have to change the converter. You could also charge the lithium battery from a lithium-capable standalone charger. This was a better option for me because I store my trailer about an hour from where I live. The battery is so light that I can take it home and put in on the charger on my balcony. If your trailer is stored, uncovered, in a sunny location you might be able to use your Victron SmartSolar controller to bring the battery up to 100% after using the stock converter to get it most of the way there (80% or so). You might want to try that before going to the hassle of swapping out the converter. You'll just need to adjust the settings on the controller for a lithium battery. You might also double check your converter to see if it is actually the WFCO with the lithium setting. I thought that NuCamp was upgrading the converter sometime in the 2022 model year.

Denny16

Also, the TaB320 has a Victron 75/10 solar controller, that is good for 100 watts of solar power charging.  If you plan to use a portable 100-watt  panel to augment the roof mount, you can use existing controller (it will use input from both roof and portable to get 100 watts to battery.  

If you want to have 200 watts of solar, than I would (and did) just add a second 75/15 to run the 200 watt portable panel setup, and let the original controller connected to the roof solar.  On a good sunny day, you get more charging from both the roof and portable panels up to their max ratings.  

The portable solar SAE connector on the TaB is factory wired directly to the battery, for use with portable solar panels that have their own controller.
cheers 

Sharon_is_SAM

@renesadae - I believe you have a converter that has a switch to use with a lithium battery.  Check it out.  Please post a picture of the switch when you find it.

Mickerly

Your power controller will have LI or LIS at the end of the model number if it is Lithium capable.

I wish I was going to Yosemite. I grew up an hours drive away. It is very beautiful all year and every month brings on something new. Now, I live in Texas there we have only flat and hot. 

Solar won't work well in the Yosemite. The valley floor where the camp sites are is at 6,600ft elevation. The ridges around the valley are over 12,000ft. There is only a small number of hours of direct sun each day except for late June and July where the sun travels length ways through Yosemite valley. The camping area is at the East end of the valley where the trees are bigger and more plentiful.

ColoradoSun

Both the rooftop solar panel and a portable panel(s) have their place. The roof top panel is able to at least partly keep up with the drain from our 3-way refrigerator running off the trailer's battery bank while traveling. Once at the campsite (even one without shade trees) the rooftop panel is rarely in an optimal orientation. The portable panel(s) can usually be set to the optimal orientation and moved periodically throughout the day. We supplement our factory 162W rooftop solar with a 100W suitcase style portable. With our 3way refrigerator running on propane it is usually more than enough. That said if the sun isn't out you will be have make adjustments to your power demands.

renesadae

Ahhh @Sharon is SAM @Mickerly found it?

WF-8735P

Is this the model number? Between picture and model number it looks like we will have to change the converter? Do you have recommendations for what to replace it with?

@Denny16 In light of us needing to change out the stock converter in upgrading to a lithium, does this change what we were going to do if and when we add in solar panels? We like the idea of adding in the second controller to pack away as much watts as found sun can give us.

Side note; is there a way to mark/save a post we want to be able to return to later?

@ColoradoSun I’m hoping the lithium battery and a solar suitcase will negate my wish (and the expense) of wishing for a 3-way fridge. There is only so much room in the TV for igloos and keeping them cool even in the shade. We love to cook on and off the grid and see more availability for teardrop stays in shady places.

renesadae

@Mickerly We actually stayed just outside of Yosemite on the west side in Bass Lake area. Yosemite was down to only one site with lottery. Although it was not our choice when we booked, we think we would actually always stays just outside and make use of the shuttles for in park explorations as we enjoyed the less crowded together campsites at night and LOVED being able to see the milkyway every night! 

-        Incorrect settings on Smart Shunt not allowing for full charges at home, sunny road travel and first hook up night, and shutting off power sooner than later

-        Numerous parasitic drains for first couple of days and some for all 4 days

-        Using the 12 V food warmer first morning and several USB chargings on first two days

-        Not using TV to fully charge up after the first loss of power

-        Opening frig after it was already warming

-        Leaving CS hatch open 12-15 hrs/day

With partial clouds on the last day and no loss of power then I think we did okay with the mostly sunny location near the lake that we had, but the frig was completely turned off by then too. We had lots of comfortable fun and did okay. Our only real loss was a bunch of food, as the amount of sun we did have and even the close by ice cube supply couldn’t keep our coolers cold enough. Thanks to the valuable responses and directions from this forum we feel as if we regained our excitement for being able to boondock without having to spend too much time being conservative about wattage if we upgrade to match our style. We have most appreciably learned how much we will need to rely on way less sun in boondocking in shadier places here in the PNW and even far destinations in FS and BLM campsites. Our goal is to upgrade to the point where we can use our frig as if it were hooked up so we can rely on the coldest steady state for vulnerable foods. On future longer trips we will supplement with an occasional hook-up camping inbetween boondocking days.

The giant sequoias and glacier trails were closed off so we want to go back again and will check with you as to less known gems to explore!

pthomas745

There is no "need" to change out the stock converter.  Any decent solar controller will fully charge your lithium battery.  Especially....when the whole discussion about "the converter won't fully charge a lithium" means it "might" not give you 10 extra amp hours.  The converter will only be an issue when charging on shore power....and you don't "require" the battery amp hours on shore power.  Seems to me...that 30 dollars per amp hour for the new converter...isn't worth it. As Marceline pointed out above:  any newer style battery charger will do those 10 amp hours for.....much, much less.

Up at the top of each thread is a little "star" symbol.  Click the "star" and it turns yellow (on my desktop, at least).  It will be saved in your "My Bookmarks" on this site.  (On my desktop, in the upper left side of the screen). 

Marceline

renesadae said:

-        Incorrect settings on Smart Shunt not allowing for full charges at home, sunny road travel and first hook up night, and shutting off power sooner than later

This isn't quite correct. The SmartShunt measures what's going in and out of the battery. It doesn't control anything. What happened was that your incorrect setting would have caused it to inform you that your battery was fully charged when in fact it was not. So you were making unfortunate decisions based on bad information.

Sharon_is_SAM

@renesadae - is that a picture of your power control center?
An owner of a 2022 CSS manufactured in July has a WFCO Model WF-8735LiS.  

When was your TaB manufactured?

renesadae

@Marceline Oops, I don't think I'm understanding the Smart Shunt still. I thought it was shutting down the power to protect the battery from discharging further than below 11.___? So without charging fully we were getting very little time on the battery before the power goes off. 

Marceline

renesadae said:

@Marceline Oops, I don't think I'm understanding the Smart Shunt still. I thought it was shutting down the power to protect the battery from discharging further than below 11.___? So without charging fully we were getting very little time on the battery before the power goes off. 

No. The SmartShunt's sole function is to monitor your battery. It communicates with the Victron Connect app on your phone to tell you information like the SoC (state of charge as a % of battery capacity), the voltage, the amount of current going in or out of the battery, and how many amp hours you've used. But to give you correct readings it has to be properly configured.
All of the Victron literature is available on their website. You will probably have more success if you can find the time to read the manuals for the solar controller, the SmartShunt and the Victron Connect app. They also have some good videos on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/user/VictronEnergyBV

Your battery shut down because it was dead. http://www.lanchbury.id.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Battery-State-Of-Charge.png

renesadae

@Sharon_is_SAM Now we are further wondering. This is suppose to be a 2022. Is there some place we can check on the unit itself. We haven't been able to find anything on the purchase papers.

Here's the background to our purchase:

In mid May we ordered a 2022 CSS non boondock but added in the solar and were going to add the larger tongue box tray later. We did't feel like we needed the stronger/higher clearance trailer.
We were suppose to get it around end of August/early September. Our salesman said it was on it's way in early September but then a couple days later said the wrong unit was made and sent, a CS.
- They offered us to wait another few months for the correct build to be sent, or
- Take a CSS in different colors,
- Wait a couple of days for them to send down a CSS from a Seattle dealers in our correct colors but with the boondock package. They offered to cover half the cost of the boondock package we were now getting. 

CRUMB!!! My hubby has been researching all our paperwork while I was typing this up. I think we got taken. Someone please please please correct me if I'm wrong...

Registration and bill of sale has 2021! We never thought to look as we had ordered and had several questions answered along the way about the 2022. The salesman never mentioned we were getting a 2021 instead of a 2022. On the day before we picked up our unit we asked for the 2022 MSRP for getting the insurance put on the unit. The salesman had to look it up and get back to us but did and it was for a 2022 which he knew we were not getting. 

Am I right to be super upset? And where can I continue this discussion? Who would go to a car lot and order a 2022 (higher sales price than a 2021) and not be ticked they ended up with a year-older model.Talk about losing value once you drive it off the lot.   Ugh!

renesadae

Thank you @Marceline. The QR code we had wouldn't get to the manual earlier so we thought the flier was all we had to go on. But someone here pointed us to getting and printing it now, so my hubby has been studying it now.

I think I thought incorrectly that the Shunt was protecting the battery by shutting it down before fully discharging. So we ended up with a completely dead battery and not the 50% protected? A quick answer is fine. I will spend some time on the manuals and youtube as well to better understand battery, electricity, wattage, and the Shunt and controller. 

Sharon_is_SAM

Look on the driver side of the tongue for a sticker with the manufacture date.  

renesadae

@Sharon_is_SAM Well this confirms it for sure...

Our T@Baby is now 1 year old and we just delivered it 2 months ago paying 2022 $$$

dsfdogs

@renesadae Your converter is the non-lithium compatible version. WFCO 8735P was stock. It can be swapped for the WFCO 8735LiS version. The LiS version has a tiny switch on the front and a couple indicator lights for lithium. 

Mickerly

This may be kind of mute now, but the WFCO 8725LiS is the power controller for the 2022 and it would be switchable to Lithium batteries.

The 2022 has some upgrades, like a batter floor, better power converter, etc. These are nice things the 2021 doesn't have.

They may have misrepresented the trailer. A 2021 is not what you contracted for. Maybe you can get the electrical systems upgrades, etc. They may need to return some cash. I think the price went up for 2022.

See what you can get to make your situation better on their quarter before escalating things. Depending on how your state sees it, misrepresenting a vehicle could be expensive for them.