Boondocking Bust! Where did we newbies go wrong?

Marceline

renesadae said:

Thank you @Marceline. The QR code we had wouldn't get to the manual earlier so we thought the flier was all we had to go on. But someone here pointed us to getting and printing it now, so my hubby has been studying it now.

I think I thought incorrectly that the Shunt was protecting the battery by shutting it down before fully discharging. So we ended up with a completely dead battery and not the 50% protected? A quick answer is fine. I will spend some time on the manuals and youtube as well to better understand battery, electricity, wattage, and the Shunt and controller. 

No. The SmartShunt doesn't automatically shut off anything. It's there so you can keep track of what's going on with your battery and you can configure it to send an alert to your phone if voltage drops below a certain level. When you're boondocking, it's important to keep an eye on the Victron Connect App so you know how quickly you're using up your battery. It will also tell you how much solar power is being generated.

Page 21 of the SmartShunt manual below has instructions on how to set the low voltage alarm. You should not let your battery go lower than 12.06V, which is about 50%.

Here's the manual for the SmartShunt: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/SmartShunt/Manual_-_SmartShunt-en.pdf

And for the solar controller: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Manual_SmartSolar_MPPT_75-10_up_to_100-20/MPPT_solar_charger_manual-en.pdf

Where are you in Oregon? Maybe there's someone who can get together with you and give you a hand.

@jkjenn has many good posts about battery management on her blog: https://jenngrover.com/guilty-as-charged-rv-battery-use-management/
 

pthomas745

I was the one who mentioned the Victron's Battery settings ( way back on Page 1 of this thread.)  The battery settings were shown as: Charged Voltage 12.0.  Discharge Floor 50%.  If a lead acid battery is at 50 percent at 12.1...it would seem to me the Victron would see 12.0 as the voltage, decide the battery was full, and charging would stop.  It would hold the battery voltage at 12.0.  If this was true, the battery used up the first 32 amp hours, and the Victron held the charge at 12.0, never recharging the battery. (I'm making many assumptions here).  But, no matter, those settings need to change, if they haven't already.

Denny16

renesadae said:

@Sharon_is_SAM Well this confirms it for sure...

Our T@Baby is now 1 year old and we just delivered it 2 months ago paying 2022 $$$

I would be going back to the dealer, and ask,why they did not state the replacement was a previous model year, or did they represent the dealer stock as it is a 2022 year model?  You need either a refund for the difference, or the trailer you ordered, vs the one you received.  You need to contact nüCamp and tell them the dealer gave you a 2021 (almost one year old trailer) instead of the 2022 you ordered.  This is not right if the dealer had represented the replacement as a 2022, or didn’t point out is was a 2021 model.  You had ordered, and contracted, for a 2022 model.  This looks like grounds for legal action, if your sales contract states it is a 2022 TaB 320, is misrepresenting the trailer they sold you.  That said, did you see the trailer registration or any paperwork that started it was a 2021 year model when you bought it?

The big change in the 2022 was the new floor technology, using a single piece, waterproof composite sub floor assembly, instead of the three layer sub floor used in 2021.  This new feature for me, would be the main reason for getting a 2022 TaB over the 2021.

Also the Lithium ready Waco power controller was added.  The dealer can not give you the new floor, so a refund is in order at minimum, along with the lithium ready power converter.  

That said, you can use the non lithium 2021 power converter to charge a lithium battery, it just will get it to 85-90% charge instead of 100%, which is ok for storage. But unless you are using a lithium with a built in Battery Management System, I would change out the converter to the new model, just to be on the safe side.  That said, the solar panel setup will charge a lithium up to 100% from the converter’s 85% charge, if the solar controller is set correctly for a lithium battery.

To answer your other question, the power converter works independently from the solar system, and the Victron Solar controller can be set for a Lithium battery in the Victron phone app. 

Cheers 

Marceline

pthomas745 said:

I was the one who mentioned the Victron's Battery settings ( way back on Page 1 of this thread.)  The battery settings were shown as: Charged Voltage 12.0.  Discharge Floor 50%.  If a lead acid battery is at 50 percent at 12.1...it would seem to me the Victron would see 12.0 as the voltage, decide the battery was full, and charging would stop.  It would hold the battery voltage at 12.0.  If this was true, the battery used up the first 32 amp hours, and the Victron held the charge at 12.0, never recharging the battery. (I'm making many assumptions here).  But, no matter, those settings need to change, if they haven't already.

As a long time SmartShunt user I just want to clear this up so no one gets confused.
The settings in this image are from the SmartShunt. The SmartShunt doesn't control or shut down anything. It is just a monitor. As I said earlier, the consequence of having an incorrect setting (12.0v) is that the SmartShunt would tell you that you are at 100% SoC when you are not. It doesn't affect the current being sent to the battery from the converter (or solar controller). It just measures it.

ScottG

renesadae said:

...
In mid May we ordered a 2022 CSS non boondock but added in the solar and were going to add the larger tongue box tray later. We did't feel like we needed the stronger/higher clearance trailer.
We were suppose to get it around end of August/early September. Our salesman said it was on it's way in early September but then a couple days later said the wrong unit was made and sent, a CS.
- They offered us to wait another few months for the correct build to be sent, or
- Take a CSS in different colors,
- Wait a couple of days for them to send down a CSS from a Seattle dealers in our correct colors but with the boondock package. They offered to cover half the cost of the boondock package we were now getting. 
...

@renesadae, I don't think you explicitly said, but I take it you choose the third option--effectively cancelling your original order and accepting a unit from dealer stock. Your recourse probably depends on whether your dealer misrepresented (or willfully concealed) that the alternative unit was a 2021. Dealers can charge whatever buyers are willing to pay, so asking a higher base price for a holdover unit is not by itself illegal or unethical. It may be why they were so "generous" in slashing the cost of the Boondock package. I'd be curious to know how the full cost of an unused 2021 CS-S Boondock compares to that of the 2022 CS-S (non-Boondock) you originally ordered. 

Regardless, it does seem there was some obfuscation (or at the very least ineptitude) on the part of your dealer. I agree this should be reported to nuCamp, and that you should return to dealer to seek some sort of mutually agreeable compensation. 

pthomas745

@Marceline Thank you.  I knew there was something a bit off in what I was describing.

Mickerly

Before you go modifying the trailer, sort out the mess with the dealer. I think you said the paperwork said 2022 and the trailer plate clearly indicates this is not the case. The dealer has placed themselves is a legal mess. You have the option of going to court or at least filing complaints with both the state and federal trade commission. They will see fines, investigation and possible loss of business license. To avoid this, I think they will be very cooperative. 

I fully agree with an earlier post, the new floor is worth its wait in gold. You were shorted on that one.

Just to make things clear. Changing to a Lithium battery and not changing the charge controller and either adding a DC to DC controller or disconnecting the charge wire from the 7-pin plug is not recommended by any battery manufacturer and warned against by WFCO. You will damage stuff. It may take a few months to see, but the charge controller, the expensive battery and the tow vehicle's alternator and wiring harness will amp loads they weren't meant to see. Venture at your own risk.

Denny16

I do not think so, most RV Lithium batteries have a BMS, to prevent over discharging the battery and damaging it.
 Cheers 

renesadae

Thank you for all the boondocking lessons everyone offered in this thread. I learned so much, but know I have so much more to wrap my head around better. I do have a couple of things that I’m not sure I understand correctly.

From Day 1 - Day 2 in our driveway we lost all power in running the Alde overnight without shore power (nor any sun). Did that mean we discharged the battery completely? And therefore degraded the battery? 

Since learning that the Victron warns but does not shut off when down to 50%, is it an auto-battery shut off that would be a good thing to have in place? I ask this because my other question is, does anyone else have trouble getting a reading from the app unless they’re standing right next to the smart shunt? We’re not even able to get a reading from just inside the front window. We’re not able to realistically monitor via the app which we not only thought we could do but thought we’d become obsessed with watching our wattage use

renesadae

@Mickerly @ScottG@Denny16 Mahalo for your advice re seeking reparations from the dealer/nuCamp. After ordering a 2022, waiting the months to have it built, told it was on it's way, then a day later telling us the wrong unit got built/sent (a CS instead of a CSS), I don't think any of the 3 options they then offered us could have been seen as a NON-2022 CSS unit. I can’t think of a more significant factor in ordering/selling and paying for a new vehicle than the model year. After calling us in response to an inquiry for a delivery update of 2 weeks, they then called back the next day, informing us of the problem and our options:

Option 1- Wait 2 more months for our ordered unit to be built and shipped. I knew from posts here, one should then push out purchase for a much delayed order to not lose those warranteed months during the winter. We considered all our camping plans for the fall would be missed as well. 

Option 2 -Take a unit in different colors than we had ordered. I never understood how they happened to have an unclaimed CSS sitting around since they never had a CSS on the lot and "ours was the next CSS they would be getting” when I asked several weeks earlier if I could take a peek at someone else’s delivery. Didn’t really have time to consider this in that they offered up…

Option 3 - They had the "same unit we had ordered" but with the boondock package, on a truck to Seattle. If we wanted that, they would split the cost of the boondock package so we would pay additional $800 and put it on a truck to Portland the following weekend. When we first ordered we decided we did not need the clearance but did want the buit-in solar and would add in the bigger platform later. $800 MORE? I mentioned to hubby we essentially would already pay for the solar which I knew became included, but he said it would get us "our unit" now and we would also get the value of the rest of the boondock package. Our course, hubby too thought it was a 2022 unit w/the greatly improved flooring build.

There doesn’t seem to be any way that we (or any other new vehicle ordering customer) would have wondered, questioned or looked at the year of the model in the small box of the final paperwork, especially since we were now paying even more total $$. It could end with 'we said - they said' if they wanted to defend against any commissioners. However, the (now) obvious evidence of intentional deceit was in the MSRP paperwork we asked for the day before pickup as requested by our insurance company. The salesperson emailed us the form headed in bold print "2022 TAB CS-S MSRP."  

The two significant injuries for us are the year loss of model and the major new build of the floors. Our value in the quality, benefits, maintenance and resale WRT the floors seems difficult to compensate for, and makes me want to ask for a 2022 replacement unit. Picking our battle seems to be the next step. Ask recommended, we'll hold off on the lithium, converter, etc, for now.

Mickerly

Sound like you're on a good course. Good luck.

Denny16

I would be taking the trailer back, and informing the dealer you plan file a fraud case against them for misrepresenting the trailer, unless they accept to:
 1.  Issue a full refund
 2. Replace the unit with the 2022 unit you had contracted for in the beginning 

As you pointed out, there is no real compensation for the new updated floor loss.  If the floor difference is not a big deal, and you only plan to use the trai,ER for a few years, than at minimum they owe you a refund for the difference between a 2021 cost, less the BoonDock upgrade as they stated they were not going to charge you for the difference.

After getting either a refund or a 2022 trailer, I would inform nüCamp about this dealer’s attempted misrepresentation/fraud.
cheers

Marceline

Mickerly said:

Just to make things clear. Changing to a Lithium battery and not changing the charge controller and either adding a DC to DC controller or disconnecting the charge wire from the 7-pin plug is not recommended by any battery manufacturer and warned against by WFCO. You will damage stuff. It may take a few months to see, but the charge controller, the expensive battery and the tow vehicle's alternator and wiring harness will amp loads they weren't meant to see. Venture at your own risk.

@Mickerly
I would like to hear your technical explanation of how the stock WFCO 8735 converter  (not "controller" FWIW) would damage a drop-in replacement style lithium battery in the 100aH to 150aH range (the range in which most T@B owners seem to be buying) with onboard BMS systems (e.g. Battleborn or LiON Energy).

Denny16

That is a good question Marceline, I had the same thought.
 Cheers 

Da_Birds

Same here! I understand the non-lithium converter will not fully charge a lithium battery but this is the first I'm hearing that there are other issues.

On a side note, it's good to hear that nuCamp is now installing lithium ready converters. I've learned several new things from this discussion. Most helpful is probably the propane cutoff solenoid. We mostly keep our clam shell open unless we are sleeping.

Mickerly

Info is spread across several sources. The charge controller/converter, charges the battery at different rates based on how much charge the battery needs. To optimize for lead acid batteries, a lower voltage and higher amperage is used compared the lithium batteries preferring higher voltage and very low amperage. The lower voltage is why it will only charge 80 to 90% of full. To use a charge controller/converter designed for lead acid to operate with lithium without shortening the lithium batteries life, you need to make a couple of changes. "Leveling charge" must be disabled. This will have high enough amperage to disable the batteries BMS. Temperature compensation in the controller is not required for lithium and should be disabled. The continuous charge may actually shorten the life of the lithium battery. 

Most BMS are simply ON/OFF switches operating when they see temperature, voltage or amperage outside of limits. This protects the lithium battery but does not regulate anything. A small exceedance should disconnect the battery, temporarily, from the trailer until a condition inside limits is restored. If you exceed a limit by a lot, it will turn off perinatally. A few BMS are more complicated. They make the lithium battery act like a lead acid battery. They take what the trailer provides and converts it to something the lithium battery can use. These are marketed as "Direct Replacement" batteries. These will work fine with our old WFCO unit.

The tow vehicle alternator looks at the resistance of the battery to determine charge. When resistance is low, it assumes the battery is discharged. It will send high amperage to the low battery to restore the charge. Lithium batteries have a significantly lower internal resistance that lead acid. It is very possible for your tow vehicle to send 60 to 150 amps, depending on the alternator, through a wiring harness designed for 10 amps.

Certain parts are not designed to play together. This is why our old WFCO controller/converter is "not recommended for Lithium" as stated in the operator's manual. A direct replacement lithium battery could be used; however, you will only see 80 to 90% of its power.

Dutch061

@Mickerly, I believe that you are mistaken regarding the "high voltage and very low amperage" desires of Lithium. I will point out that my comments are directly related to Battleborn batteries, which is what I have. I suspect that other manufacturers are similar.

Higher voltage, yes 14.4 to 14.6 volts charging in order to properly charge a Lithium Ion battery. 

Very low amperage, not true. Lithium can be charged at 50% of the rated capacity. IE 100 Ah Lithium can take 50 Amps. In my case at 400 AH, I could stack converters to charge at up to 200 Amps if I were so inclined, which I am not. 

Regarding the comments about alternators, the factory wiring is not capable of handling that much current (60 to 150 Amps). On my F-250 there is a fuse for the trailer charging circuit that is 30 Amps. If it were to exceed that, the fuse will limit it by blowing. Again, I am only speaking to what I have for a TV; others will need to look at what they have. 

If the wiring has been upgraded for the charge circuit on the TV, it must include the ground wire too. If the wiring has been upgraded, regardless the voltage will still be to low to charge Lithium properly which is where a DC to DC Charge Controller comes into play. This addition allows you to "set the output voltage to a higher level than the input voltage" to properly charge Lithium batteries via the TV. In fact, if you have upgraded the wiring, the DC to DC Charge Controller is a MUST to limit the charging current. 

Also, the BMS varies so much by the battery manufacturer as to what it can and can't do. I would suggest that if you are using Lithium to consult the manufacturer of your battery to understand the exact functions of the BMS. Very dangerous to make a blanket statement, especially if the user has multiple batteries in their bank such as I do; 400 Amps (with a 30 second surge of 800 Amps capable) can do some serious damage. 

In addition, the Solar Charge Controller and BMV-712 must be set up properly.

If the Charge Controller is set wrong, it may never properly charge the battery bank. If the BMV-712 is not set up properly, it will read 100% SOC long before the battery bank is truly charged.


Brad

Marceline

Mickerly said:

Info is spread across several sources. The charge controller/converter, charges the battery at different rates based on how much charge the battery needs. To optimize for lead acid batteries, a lower voltage and higher amperage is used compared the lithium batteries preferring higher voltage and very low amperage. The lower voltage is why it will only charge 80 to 90% of full. To use a charge controller/converter designed for lead acid to operate with lithium without shortening the lithium batteries life, you need to make a couple of changes. "Leveling charge" must be disabled. This will have high enough amperage to disable the batteries BMS. Temperature compensation in the controller is not required for lithium and should be disabled. The continuous charge may actually shorten the life of the lithium battery. 

The difference between the WFCO 8735 and the WFCO 8735LiS is a switch that slightly changes the charge profile. The WFCO 8735 bulk mode is 14.4v and the WFCO 8735LiS bulk mode is 14.4v for lead acid and 14.6v for lithium. Of course, either voltage will charge a lithium battery. I'm not sure what you mean by "leveling charge." The WFCO 8735 has three stages bulk, normal, and trickle. The WFCO 8735LiS eliminates the trickle (13.2v) stage for lithium.

The WFCO 8735 may not bring a lithium battery up to a full charge, but there are other ways of doing that, especially for owners with solar setups that can be configured for lithium.

Most BMS are simply ON/OFF switches operating when they see temperature, voltage or amperage outside of limits. This protects the lithium battery but does not regulate anything. A small exceedance should disconnect the battery, temporarily, from the trailer until a condition inside limits is restored. If you exceed a limit by a lot, it will turn off perinatally. A few BMS are more complicated. They make the lithium battery act like a lead acid battery. They take what the trailer provides and converts it to something the lithium battery can use. These are marketed as "Direct Replacement" batteries. These will work fine with our old WFCO unit.

I don't know of anyone here who has recommended or installed anything that's not marketed as a "drop in replacement" (e.g. Battleborn or LiON Energy). Since you acknowledge that these "work fine" with the WFCO converters, it's hard to understand why you are making alarmist claims about the WFCO converters wrecking lithium batteries.

Certain parts are not designed to play together. This is why our old WFCO controller/converter is "not recommended for Lithium" as stated in the operator's manual. A direct replacement lithium battery could be used; however, you will only see 80 to 90% of its power.

Straight from WFCO: "Use any existing WFCO power center or converter to safely charge your lithium batteries. Our standard products will charge your lithium-ion battery, without damage or excessive heat so you will not have to worry about where your power supply will be coming from. " https://wfcoelectronics.com/lithium-solutions/

And here's from the LiON Energy website:
"Can I use my standard charger?

Yes! You could use a standard battery charger to charge the Safari UT 1300 and it will charge the battery. However, since most chargers are designed for a lead acid battery, they charge up to a certain voltage. A lead acid battery "full" is about 13.8V. The Safari UT 1300 can accept a charge up to 14.6V. Most charger will get the batteries to 13.8V. That will put the Safari UT 1300 at about 80-85% full. For best performance, we recommend a lithium charger."
https://lionenergy.com/products/lion-safari-ut-1300

jkjenn

I am late to this thread but a few thoughts:

My friend Gina and I both boondocked with our T@b 320s in skies with more clouds than sun. I have the Boondock, Gina has a CS with the factory solar installed. I have 2, 100w lithoum batteries and a portable panel to supplement the factory solar and Gina has 2 6v AGM batteries.

We both had no problems boondocking for several days at a time in those conditions. We did get full sun, facing south in one location and facing SW at another location.

We are definitely getting to the time of year where the sun angles are not our friends, especially in northern latitudes. 

I agree with the advice to get any issues worked out, first, and get a handle on your power consumption before making modification or purchasing upgrades.

I have a post and a worksheet on my website that detail the power draw for different appliances and lights in a 2021 T@b as well as a video that explains the basics of power consumption.

For the record, the old Norcold three way fridges were a nightmare. I never knew when it was going to work or not work. The new AC/DC fridges cool much more evenly without freezing my food and most importantly, they work!! The power draw is more than manageable.

https://jenngrover.com/power-consumption/

AirBoss

renesadae said:

@Sharon_is_SAM Well this confirms it for sure...

Our T@Baby is now 1 year old and we just delivered it 2 months ago paying 2022 $$$

Make sure you have all the documentation supporting your purchase in order. Then go back to the dealership, get the salesperson and manager in the same room. Layout you docs and tell them they have 10 business days to replace your 2021 with a 2022 standard version or boondock, your choice. And if you choose boondock, the delta in price is on them as compensation for your time and inconvenience and loss of use and enjoyment. If not, you'll be contacting the Oregon Dept of Justice, Consumer Protection Division and consulting your attorney. Done. That meeting should last 10-15 minutes, max. Longer than that, you're being played.

If the documentation and facts support your case, do not mess around with the dealer. They'll will sting you along and hope you end up being like 75% of everyone else who tires of the time, effort, energy and money it takes to fight the good fight, then give up. Be a thorn in their side at the first hint of them balking.

Been there...done that. Take no prisioners here. 

tomtek

Not sure if it has been already mentioned but on the Clamshell when the kitchen is open there is a hefty battery drain via the propane safety solenoid.   There are several tricks in the forums for eliminating this draw with the simplest being a piece of tubing on Lift Cylinder mounted switch to turn off the solenoid when the stove isn't in use.   My propane solenoid pulled 2.4-2.6amps when the clamshell was opened which can quickly contribute to batter depletion.  

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/11515/does-your-2018-and-later-clamshell-cs-have-a-solenoid-valve-for-propane-flow

Looks like you have your work cut out getting your camper purchase resolved.   Best of luck 

Tom

renesadae

Update: @Sharon_is_sam, @AirBoss, @ScottG, @Mickerly, @Denny16 Thank you for your advice and support regarding our '2022-to-2021 switcheroo' sale. We ended up approaching the dealer salesperson directly as a first step, and after a bit of pushback (aka excuses) and our forwarding documents, the resolve they offered was then immediate. They scheduled delivery of a '22 floor model as originally ordered. There was a delay as we awaited the Boondock tongue platform that Ohio covered and shipped. We swapped out the trailers last week. Kinda forgot about all the customizing I had done, but eventually started enjoying 're-nesting' our T@Baby.

On the 'Boondocking Bust' original subject of this discussion, we are going to learn from the posts here to test out a couple of days boondocking next month w/an RTIC cooler, and then this summer add a lithium battery and portable solar panel to ensure we can last 3-4 days off the grid. Struggling to get even minimal hook-up reservations this summer has underscored how much we may be mostly relying on boondocking sites unless we plan/book 6-9 months in advance.

Thanks again Everyone!

René and Dave

Denny16

Glad you got it all sorted out.  Happy and Safe travels.
 Cheers