Changing out the Alde fluid.

Pintoplumber

I forgot to measure my initial drain. I measured the new stuff going in, it was about 1 3/4 gallons. (After vacuuming the remainder out via the expansion reservoir).

ScottG

@lkc001, both of your questions are also addressed in the document I directed you to on August 20 when you asked about how to make the circulator pump run continuously. See page 4.

AirBoss

For me, while I'm inclined to tackle many issues on my own, I'd just prefer to have a pro service this unit. So I'm writing a $300 check to a certified Alde service provider to drain, flush, and replace with Rhomar fluid on 23Oct. The safer play when it comes to working on devices for which I have no experience, let alone expertise. 

lkc001

@AirBoss you are very lucky and blessed that you actually have a dealer that will do this for you or even knows how to do it AND at a reasonable cost of only $300.  My experience has been a polar opposite.

ScottG

@lkc001, though I know you would rather not have to do so, I admire that you have jumped in and tackled this for yourself for lack of other options. Just read the resources here thoroughly, keep asking questions, and work deliberately and carefully. You'll get it done! :-)

lkc001

@ScottG thank you for your vote of confidence, although I did not manage to do a full emptying of the old fluid.   I drained out @ 1 to 1 1/2 gallons from the Alde.  It was harder to get the plug back in--I don't have as much strength in my hands as I used to.   

Was only able to vacuum out @ 1/2 gallon from the expansion tank with my shop vac, so that wasn't really all that successful.  I couldn't seem to get a good seal between the shop vac attachment and the little well in the bottom of the tank where the tube goes into the Alde.  I stopped for awhile and went back to try 3 times without being able to get more out. 

I am going to follow the directions using the continuous pump and add in as much fresh fluid as appropriate.  That's really all I'm going to be able to do on my own and hope it is good enough.  The fluid that drained out looked just as clear and clean as the new fluid.   

RMo

@lkc001 I think you should be OK if you do a simple draining once a year.  Here’s a link to some calculations I did on the average age of the fluid with a partial change.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/14264/calculating-alde-glycol-quality-with-simple-annual-gravity-drains-and-refills

BrianZ

@lkc001, I think what you are doing to drain & replace the glycol fluid will go a long way to help protect your system from corrosion.  I believe the corrosion seen by those of us who have pulled off hoses at the ends of connected aluminum pipes is due to local pH changes in stagnant fluid between hose & pipe.  So, next to physically covering those parts, freshening the available fluid should help protect these parts.  To this end, I have also started turning on our glycol pump for a short time on a regular basis, especially if not using the system for several weeks or months, to try to help in the crevices where the glycol may stagnate. 
Aside from the pH-based corrosion issue, I've also joined the experimental group by adding a sacrificial magnesium anode rod to our glycol tank, with hope that this may help prevent galvanic corrosion inside the Alde itself.  

lkc001

@RMo. Thank you for that info-- interesting!

lkc001

@BrianZ. Thank you for your thoughts-- I follow what you & everyone is doing on this issue.

AirBoss

lkc001 said:

@AirBoss you are very lucky and blessed that you actually have a dealer that will do this for you or even knows how to do it AND at a reasonable cost of only $300.  My experience has been a polar opposite.

Much respect for tackling the task! Lots of expertise on this forum so you're in good hands there!

For the record, it isn't a dealer that's doing the work for me. It's a certified service tech who was recommended by nuCamp and trained on Alde systems. Sheer dumb luck he's located within 30mi. of my home and will do the work in my driveway. Being just 6 months removed from double knee replacements the thought of kneeling and croutching around over a period of time just doesn't thrill me at this point. 

Wishing you all the luck and success! 

ScottG

That is fortuitous for you, @AirBoss. If I had the option I'd probably take that deal just out of sheer laziness, particularly if it involved a complete flush and refill with Rohmer.  :-)

lkc001

woww---I would gladly pay that $300 to have them come to me!  

ObtuseMoose

I just completed my first change of the transfer fluid in my TAB400 using the excellent guide that @ScottG provided.  I essentially followed his instructions to the letter.  Even used the pump he suggested. As of an hour ago the system was successfully warming up the 400.  Here are some observations.

1. I was able to get about 1-1/2 gallons out of the system just from pulling the red drain plug under the trailer. Raising and lowering the tongue and rocking the trailer got an insignificant amount more out.  Next time I won't bother with the calisthenics.
   
2. With that hand operated pump, it's really a 4-handed (2 person) job.  I needed one hand to hold the pipes in the tank, one hand to keep the hose in the new fluid jug, one hand to hold the pump, and one hand to operate the pump.  Fortunately, my wife agreed to loan me her two hands.
   
3. The hand pump I received from Amazon sucked ... er ... didn't suck.  At first it worked well, but soon air got into the cylinder and I had trouble getting it to draw fluid from the jug.  I ended up hanging the jug from the hanger bar in the closet so it was higher than the pump.  That seemed to help.
4. After pumping in about 3-3/4 gallons, I filled the tank to a little above the MAX line and turned on the Alde pump at highest speed.  I expected the fluid level to drop but it never did, or at least not significantly.  There was "vigorous action" in the tank and a few air bubbles, but in the end I had to remove the excess fluid with a turkey baster.

I spent about an hour bending the pipes and assembling the pump stuff. Once that was done, it took about 1-1/2 hours to take everything out to the trailer, take the covers off the tank, drain what I could, pump in the new fluid, and clean everything up.  If I had to do it again it would probably be closer to 3/4 to 1 hour.

For next time, I think I'll use another piece of rigid pipe on the hose that goes in the jug and use a spring clamp to keep it in place.  That will free up one hand.  I can come up with some way to mount the pump to some sort of stand so I don't have to hold it.  That should make it a 2 handed job.

@ScottG, thanks so much for doing the investigation and writing up that guide.

--

Moose

ScottG

@ObtuseMoose, I'm glad the protocol worked for you. Thanks for the detailed report of your experience servicing your 400--including the pitfalls and suggestions for remedying them.

When I serviced my 320, stuff seemed to stay in place (much to my surprise) so I didn't bother refining the design. A rigid pipe on the end of the draw hose and a stand of some sort to secure the pump are good ideas that would certainly make the process less clumsy.

I too was less than impressed with the amount of air that would get into the pump, but in the end it didn't seem to have any detrimental effect. 

Does your 400 have the Alde Flow? I'm just curious in regard to how that might affect the total volume of the system.

fstop32

@ObtuseMoose & @ScottG, I too went with the same hand pump you both used (see top of page 24).  While I think part of the air problem is just that the pump was not a high tech expensive product (which attracted me to it  ) but I also found that when I pumped at a slower, steadier pace it pulled less air.  My situation with the additional low point drain allowed me to pump into the low point drain from outside the camper which greatly simplified my process.  
@ObtuseMoose, kudos to you for tackling that project!  I'm finding it really difficult to find qualified people to work on anything these days.  Doing that fluid change yourself is a great educational experience.  Even if you never tackle it again the knowledge you gained will serve you well in knowing how the system works and being able to recognize potential problems and shoddy shop work.

ScottG

I may have mentioned this in the guide, but in my case I found holding the pump upside-down (i.e., with the handle sticking out the bottom) made a big difference in the amount of air being drawn into the cylinder.

I agree that it's biggest appeal was the price. You get what you pay for, but it does get the job done. Others have opted to drop a little more coin and use a powered pump. I think @gregndeb (the inventor of the adapters) even used a pump similar to that of the original Alde pump.  

ObtuseMoose

ScottG said:

When I serviced my 320, stuff seemed to stay in place (much to my surprise)

The pipes in the tank probably would have stayed put, but I was a little leery of pushing the stoppers into the tank inlet and outlet too firmly, lest they get stuck and come off the rigid pipes when I removed them.  Plus the hoses were moving around a lot with me wedged sideways into the closet and changing the jugs, etc. I was able to clamp the outlet hose into the drain bucket, so at least that end was secure.

I think the ideal setup would replace the manual pump with a small electric pump controlled with a foot switch.  Maybe next time.

ScottG said:

Does your 400 have the Alde Flow? I'm just curious in regard to how that might affect the total volume of the system.

Yes it does.

qhumberd

Well @ObtuseMoose it appears that your rig and mine are the same vintage, and in my link further up this thread ....

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/2665/changing-out-the-alde-fluid/p17

I have a picture of my little submersible pump that I adapted to the 12 V cig lighter in the kitchen. As I had room in the closet like you, I basically removed the cover and the plywood trim above and after draining the reservoir I just pulled the hoses below and used clamps and adaptors to connect to the pump. No extra hands needed. Then I could get out of the closet and put 2 5 gal buckets on the floor for flush and refill and the little toggle switch on the pump gave me a lot of control. Next time I may do the same with the @gregndeb adaptors and not have to remove any hoses. Mine required only a little air burping from the bath loop and we have used it several times since and it works great. I stuck with Century fluid and just rinsed really well and will await further ideas about flush and refill requirements with the new Rhomar water. None of my visible connectors had any bulging noted. And I have Alde Flow as well and on the refill I used right at 4 gallons to make sure I had pushed out all the distilled water flush. It was much easier than I thought it would be and I took and big sigh of relief and said a "thank you" to this forum for getting me through.

ObtuseMoose

@qhumberd, I saw your post about your pump and change of fluid.  I was tempted to go that route, but thought the hand pump would give me more control, although I neglected to consider the number of hands needed. I really like the idea of connecting directly to the hoses at the bottom of the tank, but it would mean more to take apart and reassemble at the end. 

I did not do the distilled water flush.  I didn't want to have more contaminated liquid to dispose of than absolutely necessary.  (I still need to find where to take the old glycol for disposal.)  I should point out that I also used the Century fluid this time.  I'll be closer to the nuCamp factory when the next change is due, so I might have them do the change to the new fluid.

qhumberd

@ObtuseMoose said

I did not do the distilled water flush.  I didn't want to have more contaminated liquid to dispose of than absolutely necessary.  (I still need to find where to take the old glycol for disposal.)  I should point out that I also used the Century fluid this time. 

We are lucky that our recycling center takes glycol and oil, so I see your point there. And I’m going from the top next time and not pull hose unless I find a competent tech close by.

But the electric pump was quite easy to use in this situation 

best wishes 
qh

kailiu3000

Many thanks to the well written documentations by  ScottG  and Qhumberd.  I was able to change the Alde glycol on my 2020 tab 400 last Saturday. It went well, but I also learned some lessons and I share them below:

 1. The inlet/outlet to the reservoir tank can be fitted for 24mm OD hoses perfectly. I bought one below from amazon:

                https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B09164J4RL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The ID of the hose is 3/4" and I found one 3/4"OD-1/2"ID hose from Homedepot that extend it further from the inlet to the pump.

 

2. It is better to pump the glycol at lower speed. The pump I used is 1/10HP and it introduced too much air into the system, I have to bleed the air out by manually pumping the glycol through an external container from the outlet and back into the inlet.

 

3. If there is more air, it could take some time for the air to be absorbed. It took a day for the glycol level to stabilize. The reservoir temperature raised after the heater was turned on in reasonable time, showing the circulation is working properly.

qhumberd

Well done! @kailiu3000, we add a little more to the database with each flush and fill. You apparently pulled the hoses from the bottom of the reservoir as I did. Nice to know a standard tubing will fit. Could you share the pump you used? Was it 12 V or 110? The little submersible I used did not pick up any air except when switching buckets so I did not have a lot to remove. But mine was on or off with no adjustment to flow.
Thanks again for sharing 

QH

kailiu3000

Qhumberd.  I used the following 110V pump, no switch, so I used switch on power strip:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08X397V32/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I also used the fittings to connect to the 3/4"OD-1/2"ID hose:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B006PKMU7U/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I used the manual pump:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B075C3NNZF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The red hoses can fit inside the 3/4"OD-1/2"ID hose perfectly.

Same as you have experienced, I believe the air was introduced when the glycol container was empty. If I do it again, I would shut off the pump to switch to the new container of glycol when it is close to empty. I lost at least half gallon of glycol when the pump pushed out the fluid with the air.

Thanks! 

Kai

Sneakle

I'm about to refill the glycol after draining it while doing a replacement of the glycol expansion tank. My Tab is the 320, I'm wondering if I will encounter any problems with air preventing me to pour it all in to the correct level, or if I have to "burp" it in some way. I have that same manual pump with red hoses that you referenced.

kailiu3000

It may take  multiple attempts to pour to the correct level. My experience is that it would take longer to settle to the correct level if there is more air in the system. If you use the manual pump and keep the intake hose submerged at all times during the pumping, it would minimize the air getting in the system. 

fstop32

You'll definitely want to burp it.  Air pockets can block circulation and if you get enough air trapped in the boiler you can damage the electrical heating elements.  I'm not sure how your specific year model can be set to run the pump but on mine I set the pump speed to max and tricked the thermostat to run the pump.  You don't want to energize the heating elements in this process, you just want to run the pump.  

I'll leave it to someone who knows your specific year model to give you the specifics on how to go about that process.

ScottG

I suggest filling the tank to max line, then following the burping procedure starting at step 8 on page 6 of the DIY Alde Glycol Exchange protocol. 

Sneakle

THANKS

RonM

For the record, I have a 2019 320 and drained & filled the Alde system last week. I did the @BrianZ three way valve procedure, as it made the most sense to me considering the location of the expansion tank. I have about 600hrs of Alde use over the last 3 years. 

 Had some bulging on hoses so I disconnected the hoses to the convectors and couplers. The corrosion was moderate i cleaned the convector and coupler ends and coated them with a conformal coating, then added heat shrink tubing to just the convector ends. I reconnected the hoses and double clamped them. 

I refilled with the Century fluid (had it on hand), will switch to the Rhomar fluid next time. 

Thank you, @BrianZ