Another Battery Question (also a Battery of Questions)

fuzzypinkbunny

I know. I know. There are a ton of battery questions and answers. But, being a newbie RVer who's picking up her new-to-me T@B tomorrow (!!!) I'm trying to determine if my thinking is right based on the many, many, many hours of reading this forum.

My husband and I have a weekend booked at a state park with no hook-ups. Originally, we were going to tent camp with friends, but now that we will have our new toy, we want to take it with us on our trip. BUT, we don't want to take the battery below 60% (per the discussions in this forum) and we don't have a generator or solar. We did purchase a battery monitor, so we can keep an eye on things.

We are totally fine just using the T@B for this weekend as a lovely tent alternative without using much power at all (I'm happy for this one to just not be sleeping on the ground. )

Based on the info on page 31 of this awesome owner's manual (http://tab-rv.vanillaforums.com/discussion/499/owners-manual-for-an-early-2014-s-m-x) it appears to me that we'll need 6 AMP hours to just exist -- so assuming for the 3 days that's 18 amp hours. We won't be using the fan, fridge, television, or radio -- and will use lights judiciously. My estimate based on this is that we should be ok for 3 days, but would love any sort of confirmation from more seasoned T@bbers... 

Does turning on the propane stove pull any amps? I was assuming no, but this is all very new to us (and overwhelming really...though we are really, really excited.) Also, the water pump: is that running just when you're running water? Is it something that runs constantly if it's turned on?

Also, how much does your TV charge your battery as you're driving? Is it a significant source of charge? (Is this a dumb question? I feel like I have a zillion dumb ones!)

Thanks in advance. You've all already helped a bunch! 

Tabaz

Congratulations!  You are going to love your T@B.  The propane stove does not use any electricity.  Eliminate as much parasitic draw as you can.  Remove the 7.5 amp fuse from the television (or simply pull the power cord out of the television).  Remove the 10 amp fuse from the Jensen entertainment center (see "Fuses for Newbies"). Or more simply, trip the #3 breaker in the converter (Light, Radio/TV).  My experience is that the fridge on propane does not draw much juice.  The water pump only comes on when needed (i.e. when you have the faucet or shower running).  However, I always flip to switch to off when not using. The "porch" and overhead interior LED lights seem to draw a noticeable amount of juice, so I avoid using them.  The Alde will use a little juice for the water heater, but not too much.  Experiment tomorrow night and Friday if you can to see how battery power is used.

Tabaz

I assume you have the new digital Alde control panel.  Make sure you press the power button to turn it off when not in use.  I mistakenly thought that by pressing the "Menu" button and seeing the panel go blank, that I had turned the unit off.  Wrongo!  One final thing - make sure the lug wrench in your tow vehicle fits the lug nuts on the T@B (mine did not).

ColoradoJon

My wife and I camped for 2 1/2 days with no hookups, solar, or generator.  We were miserly with the power, of course, and our battery dropped to 12.2 volts by the time we left.  The Alde system was on the entire time but heat didn't kick in until somewhere around midnight, and ran until approximately 7:00 am each day.  Hot water was available the whole time.  We ran the fridge during the day and turned it off at night, did not use the auxiliary fan.  We rarely used lights - only the reading lights in the back and only for about 30 minutes each day.  We did use the water pump regularly but only for short periods at a time.  We did not disconnect parasitic loads as OutbackAZ suggests, but we should have.  That is excellent advice.

This was on the dealer installed 12V battery.  We have since upgraded to dual 6V golf cart batteries which gives us a lot more power.  Depending on your tow vehicle the charging through the 7-way is very small and more of a trickle charger.  If you have a big alternator and good size wiring you may get better results.

Also note - do not depend on shore power and the on board converter to charge your battery, unless you leave it connected for a very long time.  The converter puts out decent voltage but will shut the bulk charge off after four hours.  Use an external battery charger like the Deltran Battery Tender Plus to charge your batteries to full.

fuzzypinkbunny

Thanks so much for all of this great info! I'm less worried about our first adventure (though, I suppose our first real adventure is hitting up the RMV today to get the T@B registered!  

The T@B we are buying is a 2013, so we might not have the digital Alde control panel. I'll have to research how to shut an older version down if we don't have digital. Also, we will be getting a CS model with the 2-way fridge, so no propane power for us. But, we'll keep it off. We'll be heading to Maine and are planning on mostly eating lobster rolls anyway. And a cooler will get us what we need this trip.

Photomom

Just a couple things to add - the stove does not use electricity and you will need to light it yourself. Bring a butane fireplace lighter or similar.

In our experience the converter charges the battery just fine. We plug the trailer in the day before a trip to charge the battery and also pre-chill the refrigerator (on 120v).

You will love camping in your T@B. We also moved up from tent camping and now realize we should have done this years ago.

ScottG

I've squeaked four days of dry camping from an already compromised battery. Assuming your "new-to you" T@B has a good battery, you charge it fully before leaving, you monitor your voltage, and you follow the suggestions others have made here, I expect you will be fine for your weekend trip.

Enjoy your new camper. I've heard Maine is a great place!

Photomom

We recently returned from a great trip to Maine! Have a great time and enjoy your lobster rolls!

RZRBUG

ColoradoJon said:

 
...The converter puts out decent voltage but will shut the bulk charge off after four hours...

I did not know this.  Is that pretty much common knowledge, something you've read or from personal experience?

Verna

RZRBUG said:

ColoradoJon said:

 
...The converter puts out decent voltage but will shut the bulk charge off after four hours...

I did not know this.  Is that pretty much common knowledge, something you've read or from personal experience?

I would say that is his personal experience, Larry. If your converter has not been on for a while (like in AZ after dry camping), the converter will continue running until it has the battery charged to the "float voltage" (I think that is the correct terminology). No all converters are alike, as you've probably read. Some fans run longer to cool the converter as it's charging g than others, some take longer to charge. 

rfuss928

If you conserve as you said and your battery is decent, you'll be OK.
We are currently in Bar Harbor Campground - probably for another week.  If you're in the area, stop in and say hello.  Bring lots of questions if you wish.
Have fun!
Bob

Photomom

I've observed that the converter puts out around 13.5 volts for a while, then drops to 13.1. I believe this is perfectly normal.

Tabaz

Your Alde control panel may look like this.  Make sure the far left slide bar (with the lighting bolts) is kept in the down position ("0") since you won't be on shore power.  Move the center slide up to the propane flame about 1/2 hour before you need hot water for a shower.  Slide it down to the off ("0") position as soon as you're done.  The far right slider controls the cabin heater and hot water heater.  The center position provides hot water AND cabin heat, while the top position just provides hot water (faucet only symbol).  The rotary dial is the temperature selector.  Start with the zero setting between 3 and 4 and see how hot the water is.  Caution - the Alde can produce some very hot water!  To eliminate any power consumption, simply move the three slide switches down to "0" when done. 

lapowers57

On our first trip we had to do the same thing as our solar panels had not arrived yet.  We had upgraded to a 100ah battery.  Go on your trip and treat it as a learning experience.  Use your electric appliances conservatively, monitor your battery and be prepared to shut everything down if you run the battery down to low.  You will then start to have a good idea or what your needs are.  We left the Alde and fridge running on propane the whole time, hot water and cold beer is what I got the T@B for.  The ceiling fan and the water pump are some of the biggest draws so we did not use the fan and we left the pump shut off unless needed.  Enjoy

ScottG

I have the WFCO WF-8735P. See page 3 of the Operator Manual for a description of the three stages:

http://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/3-3-Operator-Manual.pdf

The paper manual that came with mine was similar, but also stated that the "bulk mode" activates only when the system voltage was less than "13.2" volts, or "less than 50%" of battery charge. This, however, makes no sense--I think it's a typo that should read "12.2" volts.

In addition, the paper manual adds that "float mode" activates when there is a no load situation for ~48 hours.

My voltage observations are consistent with the manual. When on shore power, I usually show ~13.6 volts (absorption mode). I've occasionally seen it drop to ~13.2 volts (float mode) after a period of disuse. I've never seen it go into bulk mode (14.4 volts), but my current battery has never been below 12.2 volts, so it makes sense that bulk mode wouldn't activate. I'll take it on faith that it will work if needed!  

ColoradoJon

RZRBUG said:

ColoradoJon said:

 
...The converter puts out decent voltage but will shut the bulk charge off after four hours...

I did not know this.  Is that pretty much common knowledge, something you've read or from personal experience?

It's from the manual.  Page 3 - Bulk charge - will switch to 14.4V for a maximum of four hours (it then goes into the absorption stage or the float stage).  The manual does not indicate if it will switch back to bulk (14.4V) mode after a period of time.  The absorption stage is only 13.6V which is on the high end of the Deltran Battery Tender float stage.  This is a very slow charge and in my opinion a bit too low.  That is just my opinion.

The manual does *not* indicate the amp charge rate, so four hours on bulk mode may or may not be enough to get through the bulk charging stage.  If you have a small amp hour battery and the charge rate is good enough, it shouldn't be a problem.  I had a problem on my dual 6V 230ah system and had to switch to an external charger to get the batteries charged to 100%.

I am a 100% off grid camper with no solar or generator, so I need to make sure I maximize the power available in my batteries.

ColoradoJon

Verna said:

RZRBUG said:

ColoradoJon said:

 
...The converter puts out decent voltage but will shut the bulk charge off after four hours...

I did not know this.  Is that pretty much common knowledge, something you've read or from personal experience?

I would say that is his personal experience, Larry. If your converter has not been on for a while (like in AZ after dry camping), the converter will continue running until it has the battery charged to the "float voltage" (I think that is the correct terminology). No all converters are alike, as you've probably read. Some fans run longer to cool the converter as it's charging g than others, some take longer to charge. 

It came from the manual, not personal experience.  The manual isn't very good, though, and doesn't explain what happens after the four hours.  Does it cycle back to bulk mode?  I can't say, so without additional information from the manufacturer I just play it safe and use an external charger.  At the low 13.6V absorption rate or even the 13.2V float rate, you will eventually get a full charge.  If you leave it connect for long enough

ScottG

It's reasonable to assume that the charger would return to absorption/normal mode after a maximum of four hours.

My paper manual does state that if the converter cycles between absorption and bulk modes, it could indicate a "shorted battery cell or other issues."

I also find no info about the output amperage, but the implication is that four hours in bulk mode would be enough for a "typical" set up. @ColoradoJon, since your set-up is a bit beefier than typical, I can see why you might need to charge more aggressively.

RZRBUG

Jeez! You mean there is an owner's manual?    I'm sure I read it when I first got the T@B, but it went in one eye and out the other, conveniently bypassing the brain.  Thanks, y'all.  Good info.

fuzzypinkbunny

Thanks again all for your insights. It was a long day, but we acquired the T@B and it's in our driveway right now. It's so adorable. I am the main driver in our household and it's the first time I've ever towed anything, but everything went well. I am usually a speed demon so staying in the 60-65 range on the highway was a lesson in zen for me.

We won't be quite as far as Bar Harbor (it's on the list!) 

It appears our model of T@B doesn't have Alde, but an Atwood furnace and water heater. I'll run some searches for info about that system.

Also it appears that our model only has a black tank and no grey tank. That was surprising to me after reading all about emptying both tanks. But I guess this makes it even simpler?

Tabaz

Post some pictures of your new T@B!!

duncanmarla

We enjoyed our first week of no shore power, but I was constantly checking the battery with both a voltmeter and the panel inside and found it would drop to 12.3 both in the morning and pm, we have a generator and I would charge the battery using a separate charger for an hour sometimes twice per day (the campground had generator hours of 11 - 5pm which made that hard as we were out most days. We barely used the radio/tv and fitted lights and used the pump as needed. We didn't use the roof fan and barely ran the fridge fan).

When we first had the trailer the car charge line was not hooked up correctly and I ran the battery dead twice by leaving the fridge fan on during our 5 hour drive.

Reading the above and other posts on batteries/power  I now fear I damaged the battery, guess it's a good time to upgrade it before our next trip.

I will invest in solar even though we live in the PNW as I hated running the generator (its a Yamaha 2000w  inverter type so very quite). 

Any input greatly appreciated.

Happy travels.

Nomad

I wouldn't be too alarmed - mine settles in at 12.3/12.2 and stays that way for a long time - even thru the night with the Alde heat going.

ScottG

Killing the battery twice probably compromised it a bit, but given that you are able to keep it above 12.2 volts (which is around 50% charge) it sounds like it's still serviceable.

Keep in mind that depending on what you are using for a charger, an hour might not be nearly long enough to fully top up the battery.

Trailpixie

Resurrecting this thread:

In October we are headed up to the Katahdin area of Maine. We are renting a T@B and spending a week at a campground with no hookups (planning to buy a T@B soon). We don't have a generator. I suspect we will want heat and refrigeration as well as lights.  We can be judicious with the lights, but the fan for the heat and propane refrigeration are areas where I am concerned.

Am I in trouble?

Is it crazy to use my car as a generator?

ScottG

@Trailpixie, How much trouble you are in depends on how much you like roughing it in northern Maine in October...  ;-)

I doubt you will need to run any fans for cooling purposes. The circuitry for both the fridge and the Alde require a little 12V to stay running. If you want cabin heat, you'll also need 12V for your Alde circulator pump. I don't know offhand how much power these devices require.

The water pump (if you plan to use it) and the lights tend to draw some juice. And you'll need some sort of lighting in October unless you plan to turn in pretty early.

With judicious use of a healthy stock battery (group 24) you may be able to squeak three days on a single charge, but who knows what you'll get with a rental. A week is almost certainly too long to go with out some sort of power infusion.

In theory--and assuming you have a functioning adequately sized 12V charge line at your 7-pin connector--you could use your car as a generator to run some 12V devices as needed. However, for various reasons it may not make for a particularly good battery charger. I've never tried it so I can't say for sure.

Have you considered getting a 100W solar suitcase to take along? As long as you get a few hours of good full sun exposure every now and then, you can camp indefinitely. YMMV depending on the conditions at your site.

Trailpixie

@ScottG, do you mean something like this? 

https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Watts-Monocrystalline-Foldable-Suitcase/dp/B00HR8YNK6

My conundrum is that I am planning to get a T@B outback S with the new factory solar panels. I don't want to invest in a suitcase when I suspect those will work for me.

If I do go that way, do I need the controller? Do I just connect it up to the battery terminals?

Sharon_is_SAM

Depending on which suitcase model you purchase, it may include the controller attached to the back of the suitcase panels.  Then just hook to the battery.

ScottG

Yep, that's what I have. You will need the one with the controller. It should come stock with clamps that allow the attached controller to connect directly to the battery.

Be aware, however, that the stock leads on that Renogy are pretty short (maybe 10' at best). Sometimes it's hard to get the panels into the sun. I suppose in a pinch you could take the battery out of the camper and move the whole assembly to a brighter spot.

ScottG

@Trailpixie, as a followup to my previous comment...

I don't know where you plan to do most of your camping, but one thing the northeast US and Canada have are plenty of trees. I almost never have a campsite where the T@B is in full sun, and sometimes even getting the portables into the sun is a challenge--despite having 35' of extension cables and the panels deployed full time.

I've noticed that while a 100W suitcase does a great job given a few hours of full sun, any amount of shading severely curtails their output. Under such circumstances, the panels still help, but my battery still slowly depletes over a period of days.

If you are planning to do extended dry camping in forested area, you might want to consider the advantages of a portable panel in addition to (if not in place of) panels permanently attached to the T@B.

I'd be interested in hearing others experiences with using solar (permanent or portable) in shady locations.

Sharon_is_SAM

We have a 30 ft extension on our portable panels that worked nicely in the Adirondaks.  We only had to recharge about 25 amps, but I still had to chase the sun!