Winterizing Methods Revisited

Ratkity

It's the sweater over the T@B window that pushed me over the edge I have camped in 19F weather (winterized). Beware of condensation under rugs with solid rubber backing (non washable). I was still toasty despite the surprise weather change. Of course, Sunday it started warming up to the 70's! ugh.

TerryV6

My wife and I are both retired.  Maybe he has room in his backyard for some overnight campers....

Bill_Cochrane

Certainly don't mind the posts and read them twice over to ensure I understand all that's being said.  Got to say I hate plumbing :( as I'm lousy at it.  ( I think the AEEEE was said in jest too.  I found it funny anyway).

Tabby

Great! Please help me understand why the valves need to be adjusted to bypass the Alde when using the antifreeze method. It would seem that if the entire plumbing system, including the Alde, were filled with antifreeze, there would be no need to change valve settings when winterizing. Thanks for any insight. 

Sharon_is_SAM

The Alde company does not want you to put antifreeze or any bleach solution to flush the hot water tank.  If I remember there is concern about the potential effects of bleach on the aluminum.  Also, if you put antifreeze in the hot water tank you would need to sanitize it later and there is then the risk of a leak with bleach into the cabin heating system that needs a certain concentration of glycol to work.  So even if there is a little water left in the hot water tank, a little water won't freeze and expand enough to fill the area of the tank.  So, don't put anything in that hot water tank but water - bypass the hot water tank.  

ChanW

Ah, @ScottG, you do have some strange qualities!
(It's no wonder they elected you as a mod!)

ScottG said:....

Anyway, don't worry. Given my peculiar fascination with plumbing, I'll talk winterizing with ya' all day!

Verna

@Chan it was a unanimous vote, too!

ericnliz

Yep, all @Tabaz has to worry about is what color sweater he's gonna choose for this year. (personally I think he's jealous that he doesn't get to experience the "winterization " thing!)

Bill_Cochrane

oh oh I did not read anything about the Alde system not being winterized and I did indeed run antifreeze through the water tank. Am I the only one to have done this and did I create a problem for myself?

Tabby

SAM - Much thanks for that very clear advice on why we should bypass the Alde when using the antifreeze method!
Sharon & Alan, 2016 T@B Outback and 2015 Nissan Xterra

Sharon_is_SAM

1. It is odd because if you read the Alde manual it talks about draining the hot water tank and then following the direction of your trailer manufacturer to winterize.  It almost sounds like you will be instructed to use antifreeze, but then when you read the nuCamp directions, clearly they direct you to bypass.  I think the only way we know the "why" is from the work of the forum members.  

ChanW

@Bill_Cochrane, yes back when the Alde was new to the Tab, I put the antifreeze in the whole system, maybe for three months it was in there, don't remember. Little Guy didn't install the 'bypass circuit' back then.
At that time, the advice from Alde was that it would be fine to run it with the antifreeze in there, and to simply be sure to rinse it thoroughly before starting it up dry (I think).
At any rate, I've used the blow out method ever since, and haven't had a problem develop.

ScottG

I did even worse when I first got my T@B. Not only did I run bleach through the Alde tank, I misinterpreted the sanitizing directions (they were a little ambiguous...) and used at least 5x more bleach than required.

It took most of that season to finally rinse all the smell out, but guess what? the Alde still works fine, it hasn't fallen apart, and I'm still alive!

Stuff happens. RDWHAHB!  :-) 

Sharon_is_SAM

Scott, TGFTAI!!!

ScottG

You stumped me with that one, SAM, but I'm thinking--like RDWHAHB--it has something to do with not getting your chakras in a knot.  :-)

Sharon_is_SAM

Thank Goggle For Translating Acronyms!

ChanW

Yep, @SAM lost me too!

Love the RDWHAHB.
Gotta practice that more!

tabberdave

Seems like there are two schools of thought when it comes to winterizing the T@B, using antifreeze or blowing out with air compressor.  I am going to use the blow out method with antifreeze in the sink, shower, and toilet drains.  I am a new owner of the T@B Outback, not sure what the best method is.  I did go to my local RV dealer in town, did not by from him, and he told me using the blow out method with air compressor, that the air will have moisture in it and could leave droplets of moisture in water lines and that it could settle in the low spots and then if it gets -20,-30 below it could freeze and crack the lines, good point, but not so sure about that, still going to use the blow out method.  Just wanted to check here with the forum members, especially those in the cold North, I'm in Wisconsin, that have used the blow out method and that it has worked fine for you with no broken water lines come spring?  Jerry's Camping where I bought my T@B in Madison recommends the antifreeze method, they did a winterizing seminar that I went to this month, never thought to ask them about blowing out with air.  Just a little bit unsure about which method is best, and wanting to hear from fellow T@BBERS, especially those in Northern climes, confirmation that the blow out method does indeed work fine.

TerryV6

Hey Tabberdave.  You a Wisconsin boy?  I live in Appleton and we bought our Tab at Jerry’s. We went to their seminar last year.  They put on a nice spread and are very friendly.  My wife would like a week alone in the shop however, to cleanup and straighten.  It’s a bit free wheel in there.  That said, did Joe (think that’s his name) give you the winter instruction?  He is a bit of an odd duck..  I was told that the older man died.  I think he was the one who loved all things Coleman...  We did the antifreeze method last year and this fall as well.  There are a lot of very smart people here who do the air compressor method.  Maybe next year.  I’ve found that info on the camper is there in the manual (somewhat), but I’ve done a lot of searching and asking too.  I have a tendency to print it out, hence I have two three ring binders full.  Might need a third.  So much good stuff here..
Welcome!

JohnDanielsCPA

T@Bs are very small trailers that don’t have a lot of tubing.  If you blow out the lines with at least 40psi pressure, you are going to blow out enough water to virtually eliminate any risk of damage.  Water does not expand THAT much when it freezes, so if there is a little bit left in the lines, you aren’t going to have a problem.  Water lines break when water freezes and it has nowhere to go.  The little bit of water likely left in the lines after blowing them out will not expand enough to break them.  I was more than just a little amused at the dealer being concerned that a few drops of moisture from the air compressor could actually create enough moisture to cause a problem!  There are only a few risk areas you need to worry about.  The drains (shower, sink and toilet) need to have antifreeze dumped down them; not a lot, maybe a cup at most for each drain.  Make sure you drain the Alde; yellow lever flipped up; and leave it up.  Open your low point drains, then run your compressor through the city water connection.  Open each faucet (hot then cold for kitchen sink then shower) and flush your toilet so the water is cleared from the toilet valve.  If you have an outside shower, make sure you clear that as well.  Give the compressor time to push most of the water out; it doesn’t have to be every drop.  Finally, run your water pump for a few seconds.  Unscrew the filter and drain any water that may have collected there.  Some water may drain out of the pump when you remove the filter, but it won’t be enough to be concerned with.  That’s it!  No antifreeze necessary.  I have a fifth wheel that I DO run antifreeze through as well as blow out, but I add antifreeze because there are long lengths of plumbing throughout and a lot of kinks that water can get trapped in, so it’s more a precautionary measure, mainly, because it would be a huge hassle to fix it if anything broke.

tabberdave

TerryV6 said:

Hey Tabberdave.  You a Wisconsin boy?  I live in Appleton and we bought our Tab at Jerry’s. We went to their seminar last year.  They put on a nice spread and are very friendly.  My wife would like a week alone in the shop however, to cleanup and straighten.  It’s a bit free wheel in there.  That said, did Joe (think that’s his name) give you the winter instruction?  He is a bit of an odd duck..  I was told that the older man died.  I think he was the one who loved all things Coleman...  We did the antifreeze method last year and this fall as well.  There are a lot of very smart people here who do the air compressor method.  Maybe next year.  I’ve found that info on the camper is there in the manual (somewhat), but I’ve done a lot of searching and asking too.  I have a tendency to print it out, hence I have two three ring binders full.  Might need a third.  So much good stuff here..
Welcome!

Hi Terry V6:
I am just west of you here in Wisconsin Rapids.  Went to their seminar this fall, had a table set up for lunch, was very nice.  Joe did give the winter instructions and walk through, and yes he is a bit of an odd duck, nice fellow though.  Thanks for replying to my post appreciate it.  Lots of knowledgeable folks here in the forum.  The wife and I are really enjoying our T@B Outback, did a trip around Lake Michigan, took SS Badger over to Ludington and  then went north across Mackinaw Bridge and through the UP and back home.  I bicycled it and wife drove truck and camper as sag support.  Hope to do a trip out west next summer.
 

tabberdave

JohnDanielsCPA said:

T@Bs are very small trailers that don’t have a lot of tubing.  If you blow out the lines with at least 40psi pressure, you are going to blow out enough water to virtually eliminate any risk of damage.  Water does not expand THAT much when it freezes, so if there is a little bit left in the lines, you aren’t going to have a problem.  Water lines break when water freezes and it has nowhere to go.  The little bit of water likely left in the lines after blowing them out will not expand enough to break them.  I was more than just a little amused at the dealer being concerned that a few drops of moisture from the air compressor could actually create enough moisture to cause a problem!  There are only a few risk areas you need to worry about.  The drains (shower, sink and toilet) need to have antifreeze dumped down them; not a lot, maybe a cup at most for each drain.  Make sure you drain the Alde; yellow lever flipped up; and leave it up.  Open your low point drains, then run your compressor through the city water connection.  Open each faucet (hot then cold for kitchen sink then shower) and flush your toilet so the water is cleared from the toilet valve.  If you have an outside shower, make sure you clear that as well.  Give the compressor time to push most of the water out; it doesn’t have to be every drop.  Finally, run your water pump for a few seconds.  Unscrew the filter and drain any water that may have collected there.  Some water may drain out of the pump when you remove the filter, but it won’t be enough to be concerned with.  That’s it!  No antifreeze necessary.  I have a fifth wheel that I DO run antifreeze through as well as blow out, but I add antifreeze because there are long lengths of plumbing throughout and a lot of kinks that water can get trapped in, so it’s more a precautionary measure, mainly, because it would be a huge hassle to fix it if anything broke.

Thanks JohnDaniels CPA:

I appreciate your reply, I feel more confident that blowing out the lines with air pressure should work fine.  I thought the same when dealer said about there being moisture in the air that could leave some droplets and possibly cause problems.  I may just give the lines another shot of air just before a really cold spell hits, just to be safe, probably unnecessary though.  Anyway thanks again for your help.  I may use my camper this fall/winter yet, should be OK to use the Alde heating system I would think.

jgram2

A reminder when you are draining prior to blowing out the lines-lower the front of your trailer as far as it will go, and raise it as high (for the lines at the rear of the trailer). After draining our fresh water tank, I got quite a bit more water draining out when I lowered the hitch.

ScottG

tabberdave said:

...  
Just a little bit unsure about which method is best, and wanting to hear from fellow T@BBERS, especially those in Northern climes, confirmation that the blow out method does indeed work fine.

I just winterized for the third time using the blow-out method. I've had no problems over the past two winters.

Which method is best? I guess it depends how you define best. For me it's whatever methods protects my plumbing and involves the least amount of work.  :-)

YMMV!

TabberJohn

In an ideal world someone would manufacture a water pump that doubles as an air compressor.

tabberdave

Twojgrams said:

A reminder when you are draining prior to blowing out the lines-lower the front of your trailer as far as it will go, and raise it as high (for the lines at the rear of the trailer). After draining our fresh water tank, I got quite a bit more water draining out when I lowered the hitch.

Thanks for the tip Twojgrams, I did lower the front of my Outback, thought it was drained, but more water drained out after lowering the tongue, thanks again.

jgram2

@tabberdave you're most welcome-I know the amount surprised me, and learned how from someone else on this forum!

ChanW

I think @JohnDanielsCPA covered it really well.

We're in the north too, and it's worked for us for a few years now.

I open one valve at a time while the lines are under pressure (no more than 50psi). I figure it gives the air some velocity to push the water out in a blast.

Ratkity

TabberJohn said:

In an ideal world someone would manufacture a water pump that doubles as an air compressor.

I'm afraid it doesn't double as an air compressor, but a drill pump will make short order out of draining the water tank! You can get a cheapo one at a big box hardware store or a decent one from Amazon.

Smullis7

Freshaire said:

This is all greek to me.  How does one add antifreeze to the gray and blank tanks?

You can dump it down the toilet and sink or shower drains.