400 is not operating at all on battery power

pingnc

We picked our 400 at the end of May.  During our trip out west following uCamp we had to replace our battery and I started to monitor the new one with a plug-in meter.  Added solar that increased the observations.  Found that the Jenson, even with the TV unplugged was a large draw.  Needed to remove the fuse to 'kill' that parasitic drain.  Frig is also a very large drain, even at the '1' setting.  Back home with 400 sitting in the drive, with frig off and Jensen fuse out, our battery has gone from 12.51 to 12.43 over a 5 week span.  The LED lights draw almost nothing in use and the pump is short 'burst' mode use.  The Alde has very low drain, even when running.  I figure we should be good for 3-4 days if we skip the TV/stereo and the frig.  YMMV  (After 10,000 miles and 6 weeks on the road, we still love our 400)

Verna

@pingnc, try using the TV without the Jenson, for less battery draw. This won’t help with DVD’s, but the TV normally has a lower draw.  When I had to replace my TV last winter, I bought a new 12V TV with a built-in DVD player and the battery draw is still very low. I rarely use the Jenson due to the fact that I rarely have an electrical site in the winter in AZ. 

gooddogs74

We picked up our 400 last week.  Before we left the dealer, they discovered the 30 amp fuse was blown and the battery was discharged.  They told me my tow vehicle would charge it some.  When we got home, we tried to turn on lights, nothing, discovered another blown fuse.  Plugged in everything worked fine. I called NuCamp and discovered that apparently this is a known problem in the 400s and they have since upgraded them to a 40 amp.  Why this was not communicated to the dealers so they could fix them before selling them I have no idea.  NuCamp has sent me the new fuseholder and wires and I am having to take that to another place to have it installed.  They said they would cover it under warranty even though they are not a dealer.  The dealer I purchased from is almost four hours away.  I can't even get it in to the place until next week to be fixed.  It has been a source of stress and though they were nice about it and sent the parts quickly, I am brand new at all this and it's just somewhere else to deal with.  I have to tow the thing and get it fixed after I just paid a lot of money for it.  It seems like if it were a known problem, why couldn't an e-mail go out to their dealers so they could all be fixed prior to sale?  

AMac

I had to reach out to our dealer about this too, after reading about this on the t@b users facebook page. So we, too, have to bring our t@b to the dealer for a fix, which is a serious pain since we don't have a setup that makes getting t@b in and out of where it's parked easy. I don't understand the response on this issue either @gooddogs74.

ScottG

Are we talking about the main fuse installed in the positive line coming off the battery? If so, almost anyone who can cut a wire and install a simple crimp fitting should be able to do this in a matter of minutes. It certainly shouldn't require a trip to an RV dealer.

Forgive me if I'm missing something here. I know the 400s have the battery installed inside, but I'm not familiar with the specific wiring configuration in that model. If you can describe exactly what it is that needs to be replaced, I might be able to offer additional suggestions. 

gooddogs74

@ScottG they sent a 40 amp fuse holder and some wire.  I am completely new to all of this.  I towed the trailer 4 hours home and discovered all this when I couldn't turn thr lights on.   Luckily they are letting the camping world half hour away do the warranty work.  Even if I knew how, I would be afraid it would void the warranty.  I'm a little irritated about the whole rhing. 

Haloo

Kind of like getting an extra 7th grade homework assignment for the weekend.  But just to put things in perspective, Ford is recalling newer model F150 pickups because the door latches can freeze shut, or fly open without warning.  Last summer BMW recalled R1200GS motorcycles because the fork tubes could fail causing catastrophic loss of control.  I was lucky to be near the first in line to get mine fixed.  Others waited most of the summer.

The greater the features and capabilities, the greater the complexity, the greater the likelihood of occassional failures.  It’s amazing to me that a small company like NuCamp can offer such a feature rich camper with as few problems as they have.  

This is one of the wonderful things about modular systems. They can be accessed by various manufacturers to build a range of cool products.  But sometimes the components don’t always play nice with one another.  So now we need a 40 amp fuse.  Sigh.

@gooddogs74, find your place of inner peace.  This will not be the last issue you will face with your camper.

gooddogs74

@Haloo I am ok and not really too upset anymore, just anxious to get it fixed.   I'm not really that upset it needs to be changed,  more that it seemed like a simple email to the dealer could have alerted them to change it before it was sold.  They had no knowledge of a problem.  They did discover a blown fuse before I took it, they replaced it, but when I got home, another promptly blew, and as someone who has never owned an rv before and never even towed anything before, when I had just spent a very significant sum of money, it was just a letdown at the time.  I am taking it this week for the repair.  Thanks and I really appreciate all the good advice on this forum!

ericnliz

@gooddogs74, Kinda curious why they didn't re-check the fuse (and the system) after replacing it...I would have! Hang in there, we've all hit bumps in the road. Keep tuned in here, there's a lot of great help, direction, and advise. NuCamp is a great company, and you can count on them to help you & get the the problem resolved!

gooddogs74

@ericnliz I don't know and I didn't know enough to ask.   I had been there 3 hours at that point going over things and my brain was full.   I do remember they told me the battery was only 10% at that point and that my tv should help charge it.  

Haloo

gooddogs74 said:

@ericnliz I don't know and I didn't know enough to ask.   I had been there 3 hours at that point going over things and my brain was full.   I do remember they told me the battery was only 10% at that point and that my tv should help charge it.  

Ha!  All of my education and I was just about undone by the delivery walk-through!

When we were looking for a camper we went to a fancy Airstream dealer to look at their Basecamp camper.  The sales person pushed hard to get us to buy.  Never once did she tell us that there was a recall on the camper’s axle, and that we would have to wait weeks before the new axles would arrive.  And that there would be a number of people in front of us to get their axles replaced.  All known issues to the dealer.  And that there was an existing issue with the refrigerator leaking that just about everyone who owned a Basecamp was complaining about.

After shopping for campers a lot of the decision came down to the support system. This forum and the Lance forum are terrific. (Airstream’s forum can have some attitude issues.) Both manufacturers stand behind their products (if not always in exactly the way you’d want).  Beyond that....well, if you keep your camper you will become a do-it-yourselfer.  But folks here will help you out.  And despite your initial issues, you’ve got a great camper to start with.

I guess I’ll contact NuCamp for the new 40 amp harness and learn how to install it.  If you find out first, let me know.  I’ll be happy to help you if you want to install a composting toilet!

ScottG

@gooddogs74, thanks for the photo--that is definitely a different item from what I was thinking based on the what is installed in the 320. Your item appears to be a switchable, re-settable circuit breaker. I still expect the repair will be quite easy and it's fortunate you have a place nearby that can get it done for you.

@Haloo, if you're inclined to tackle the repair yourself I'm sure you can manage it. Swapping out the breaker itself should be straightforward--you'll just have to figure out which wire needs to be replaced with the new (presumably heavier) version. I'm guessing it's the wire that connects the battery to converter. If you have questions once you get the kit, post some photos of the existing install and we'll work from there to figure it out!

Ratkity

I put a switchable 30A just like in the photo on my toy hauler. They had put a one-time-blow automotive 30A fuse in the line. Wha? Gone now. All I wanted was to pull the fuse to put in an electronic thermostat. That was the job where the drill bit slipped and I now have a nice scar in the near-center of my middle finger on my left hand.

Seriously, it's a 15 min job. I broke the cardinal rule of mods, I continued to push on when it was time for a break, some food, cool off in the A/C and leave the frustration behind.

I'm glad you are getting it fixed!

Oh and regarding the walk-thrus? For those who haven't gone through this yet, take your phone and video the entire thing!

Haloo

ScottG said:

@gooddogs74, thanks for the photo--that is definitely a different item from what I was thinking based on the what is installed in the 320. Your item appears to be a switchable, re-settable circuit breaker. I still expect the repair will be quite easy and it's fortunate you have a place nearby that can get it done for you.

@Haloo, if you're inclined to tackle the repair yourself I'm sure you can manage it. Swapping out the breaker itself should be straightforward--you'll just have to figure out which wire needs to be replaced with the new (presumably heavier) version. I'm guessing it's the wire that connects the battery to converter. If you have questions once you get the kit, post some photos of the existing install and we'll work from there to figure it out!

Thanks for the offer of help, Scott. It will be March before I tackle it. 

WilliamA

It sounds from all the similar experiences like the problem is that the batteries get discharged on dealer lots and then blow the fuse because of excessive output from the converter when you do plug them in.  I don't have a Tab (Tag guy) but can't conceive of the tiny voltage draw from o2 monitors and led circuitry being much of a draw.  The pragmatic thing to do is assume first that when the battery was installed new, it was only partially charged, then sat for months in that condition.  The lower the surface charge, the quicker it discharges.  Charge it up, let it sit for an hour or more, then take a reading of the voltage.  It's easy to assume something is wrong when it isn't.  It takes several charge/discharge cycles to bring a battery up to its full potential.  With the possible exception of the tele, voltage draw of everything else is tiny.  Last, don't forget that a battery typically loses about 2% of its charge per week/month depending on how lucky you were at getting a good one.

Calm down everyone.  Charge, test, make notes, repeat.  As MMike said, you can check your battery voltage anywhere.  You don't need to do it at the battery unless things get weird.

"Running is NOT a plan.  Running is what you do when your plan doesn't work."  Earl T. Bass

WilliamA

Sharon_is_SAM

WilliamA - Gooddogs74 and the OP both have TaB 400s with large 235 amp AGM batteries.  The discharge rate once fully charged and if isolated will be practically nothing on a weekly basis and very little even over multiple months.  But your point is well taken.  Charge it up and go from there.

gooddogs74 - I am curious how long your battery will take to recharge while plugged in to shorepower having been depleted down to 10%.  After you get it fixed, keep us posted.  Also, if any battery is that far discharged, there may be damage, so keep track of how long it holds a charge when not in use.  Don't be surprised if you do not see much of a recharge from your TV depending on how far you are towing it.  Also, you may want to consider getting a smart charger. 

Ron

Does the 400 have a separate breakaway battery for the brakes?  If it dosen't and your house battery is dead you will have no breakaway brakes.  Not likely to happen, but if it did you could seriously injure someone else.

Sharon_is_SAM

Good point Ron.  So, I was going to suggest that they use a smart charger hooked directly to the battery to charge it, but it does not do much good traveling down the road with a blown fuse.  Still won’t be able to engage the break-away brakes.

LSkrabut

Item to note:

I been told my 400 came off the line on 21 Nov. It has the 40 CB installed. 

When did your 400's get built? Not that it matters,  easy to upgrade, (NuCamp) apparently will work with you if you still have a fuse instead of a CB.

Mark_and_Sue

I have a 400, bought in Oct this year. Everything has worked fine. Where do I look to find the fuse or breaker that is being talked about here? 

LSkrabut

40 amp CB location:

Mine is located between the battery isolation switch and the battery itself. Look under the door side bed or in the outside access door.



BTW, anyone know what the power cord is for that is shown on this photo? I think it is the Norcold fridge, but yet check it out to verify my thoughts. Unplugging it, the fridge LED is still working. I have  yet to pull the 12 v fuse and check this out yet, too lazy in the cold, covered T@B.

ScottG

I'm not absolutely certain, but I second your guess that's it's the fridge. There's not much else in there that would require a 120V outlet.

As with the Alde, the fridge's operating circuitry probably runs exclusively on 12V from the converter. The 120V power--when available--goes only to the only to the compressor/heater, depending upon how your fridge works.

Michigan_Mike

Regarding the 40 amp resettable circuit breaker it does look like a simple fix when viewing the photo above.  It appears that you will need to just disconnect the "red" positive lead from the battery to the post on the on/off switch and install the new 40 amp fuse between those two points.  You will need four 12 volt ring terminals, one on each end of the wire and that's about it.  I've seen the large AGM battery in the 400 at the factory, but really don't know how easy or difficult it is to gain access to the battery?   If it merely requires lifting a bench seat up, etc. this is most likely a 10-15 minute project if you have the ring terminals and a wire crimping tool available.  I would plug the trailer in to shore power, fire up the Alde and make the repair in cozy environs if you are familiar/adept with these types of repairs. 

And I certainly understand people's frustration with these types of problems as distance to and from a dealer (if distance is an issue) does create problems for some folks.  But inasmuch as issues like these and ordering/receiving delivery of a new trailer purchased create some initial anxiety and stress for some, these issues are eventually resolved and the thrill and excitement of travel, adventure and creating life long memories with these beautiful trailers soon erases and washes away the earlier events.  I think we've all encountered similar situations and with each traiker I have purchased and owned (4 trailers to date) the anticipation and excitement is always there.  

Hang in there as better days are ahead!

LSkrabut

Just did a simple check. Opened the CB for the fridge, check for power on the outlet, nothing there, closed the CB and power was there. So that is the outlet that the fridge is plugged into for 120vac operation.

On battery access, it appears for just access to the battery post, open the center section of the bed from within the 400, 2 Phillip's screws removes the wood cover. Looks like a PIA to remove this battery. Might have to remove the wood strips on the floor to slide the battery out to a point to which lifting it out of the basement area is possible. 

Mark_and_Sue

 Can’t you just replace the 30 amp fuse with a 40 amp fuse? Are they not the same size for the holder?

ScottG

Mark_and_Sue said:

 Can’t you just replace the 30 amp fuse with a 40 amp fuse? Are they not the same size for the holder?

This is ill-advised unless the existing wiring that the fuse protects is capable of handling the increased amperage. I suspect that is why gooddogs74 received a roll of wire along with the new 40A circuit breaker. It may be necessary to upgrade the entire line between the battery and the converter.

Along the same topic...  The line from the battery to the converter in my 320 has a 30A fuse at both the battery and the converter. If this also applies the the 400 I would expect that upgrading one would necessitate upgrading the other as well.

If in doubt, it might be good to check with nuCamp to determine exactly what they are recommending for this fix.

gooddogs74

@SAM, Not sure how I tell how long it takes to charge?  Just by the little button in the camper?  Is there something else I should be checking? 

Also, can you enlighten me on the smart charger?  

Good to know that plug is the fridge.   

I was supposed to receive an email from NuCamp telling me exactly what to specifically tell the camping world  that will repairing it this week.  I haven't received it, am going to have to try and call them back, they were closed last week.  

I really hope the battery is not damaged, but I'm not sure how to tell.  

Ron

To bad that you can not make it to Tabazona 2018.  It would be like T@b immersion school for you for the weekend.

Sharon_is_SAM

@gooddogs74 - Different batteries have different charging requirements.  You can charge your battery several ways:  maybe by your tow vehicle alternator, via shorepower with the TaB converter/charger or using a seperate battery charger plugged into shorepower.
  In general, a deep cycle battery like yours, benefits from 3 stages of charging at various battery dependent voltages:  bulk stage, absorption stage and float stage.  There are battery chargers that simply deliver a constant voltage and then there are chargers (smart chargers) that recognize what your battery needs and delivers the appropriate voltage and tells you when it is fully charged.  As your battery has a high amperage and is currently depleted, you will benefit by a larger amperage smart charger to hasten the time to charge.  You need to consult the battery manufacturer specific directions re your battery maintenance.  Maybe another Tab 400 owner can help out here?...  Read about AGM batteries here- https://www.solar-electric.com/learning-center/batteries-and-charging/agm-battery-technology.html. Also, check out the forum categories - lots of info on batteries and charging.  

Curious what your battery monitor reads when you are not on shorepower.  I suspect with the blown fuse it would not display.  Unless you have a functioning battery monitor or know how to use a multimeter, you will not be able to track the charge at this point.  

Re the time to charge - After you are up and running with a new fuse, then you will be able to measure depletion and how long it takes to fully recharge.  In the meantime, if you actually get a smart charger, you can hook it up directly to your battery and charge it.  It will not overcharge on the smart charger, so no worries.  The blown fuse will not interrupt a direct charge.  

One last thing, to help prevent blowing future fuses, make sure everything is turned off before connecting or disconnecting shorepower.  If you leave your Alde turned on and then disconnect, you will risk blowing an Alde fuse due to a potential sudden power surge when you next connect to shorepower.

LSkrabut

Does anyone happen to have a wiring diagram for the 400's? Even that there appears to be a moving target on some of the specification use in the 400's since they started to be delivered, be nice to have a general idea of the 400 wiring layout.

My converter (power center) which is model WF-8955 (55 amp output) does appear to have 2-40 amp fuses as input protection. The main CB is still a 30 amp. Got to check you own Power Center to see just what was installed to be sure.

Edit - Those 2-40 amp fuses are reverse polarity protection. The main CB is still a 30 amp. But with that stated, max output is 55amp, but there are other CB's for total output coverage of this power center (converter). Web search for WFCO WF-8900 is your friend for a more detail information on the Power Center.

I have an inverter also (1200/2400 AIMS PWRIX120012S), that has a 150 amp fuse.

I have not backtrack yet the solar panel fuse.