My Solar Setup Updates

Ratkity

Did my decaffeinated brain misread your post? The old controller was toast? I still think the controller is the issue. You've done everything. There's nothing else. You are getting voltage because it shows it. The controller battery charger is not working correctly. Call Victron people.

Sharon_is_SAM

@Ratkity, I think Jenn had a past event when she thought her 100/30 SCC was toast and she bought a replacement.  Turned out her 100/30 was fine, so she sold her replacement.  Now it looks like her installed 100/30 has a hiccup.  Her BMV Battery Monitor is fine, her battery appears to be charged, but her Victron SCC app display shows no appropriate activity from the 100/30 and there is validation via a sensor error.  Sensor/display error.  

Our entire battery monitor display went down when the fuse on the + battery wire to the shunt became wet.  Dried it out, cleaned it up, and an occlusive dressing later healed it right up.

What kind of coffee are you drinking this morning?  

jkjenn

ChrisK said:

I'm running out of ideas. Are the cables between the controller and the battery new? If not, old cables can get internal breaks which will cause high resistance which makes things act weird. Replace them with brand new ones and eliminate the shunt and the bus bars for testing. Heck, even if they are new, replace them to test. If it still fails after that, probably bad controller. If that works, first, just connect the shunt only and check. If that works, connect it through the bus bar with no other loads hooked up. If that works, one by one, start connecting other items to the load and test after each one. 

Yeah, they are brand new, high quality cables and I even swapped them out and bypassed the bus bars to test.

Sharon_is_SAM said:

@jkjenn, just catching up reading this entire thread.  Now my turn😀

1.  Have you rearranged any wiring since the last time the SCC worked normally?  

2.  I may have missed this, did you check the voltmeter readout on the SCC at the panel input?

3.  The shunt load side and SCC battery negative are both attached at the bus bar, correct?  And the SCC battery positive is direct to the battery?  

4.  Do you have a separate dongle for the SCC?

The error 21 code - Current sensor malfunction would certainly explain the lack of panel output reading.

Check your PM.

1. Yes, but over a year ago.it has since sat out in the weather for a year and taken some trips, one of which was very rainy.

2. Yes, I was getting the correct voltage, there, too.

3. Yes shunt load to bus bar and SCC negative to bus bar. SCC Potive and battery cut off switch are both to positive. I also tried it with SCC positive directly to the battery.

4. I have both the BT dongle and also a direct data cable to the Victron MPPT remote display.

As a side note, my Nocco charge is wired to mirror the SCC wiring on the battery side and it works flawlessly.. I really think it is the SCC.

rfuss928

dhauf said:

 The MPPT controllers are more efficient than the PWM types so even in some cloud cover the controller will boost the voltage to help compensate for this,

MPPT controllers are actually less efficient due to the DC to DC voltage conversion required thus the much larger heat sink than an equivalent PWM controller.

They can not increase voltage - They reduce excess panel voltage to match battery requirements and increase charging current in the process for a small sacrifice of energy (efficiency).  An advantage when panels are near their maximum power and battery voltage is low.  No matter how "smart" or sophisticated the controller, they can not create energy!

Ratkity

Sharon_is_SAM said:

@Ratkity, I think Jenn had a past event when she thought her 100/30 SCC was toast and she bought a replacement.  Turned out her 100/30 was fine, so she sold her replacement.  Now it looks like her installed 100/30 has a hiccup.  Her BMV Battery Monitor is fine, her battery appears to be charged, but her Victron SCC app display shows no appropriate activity from the 100/30 and there is validation via a sensor error.  Sensor/display error.  

Our entire battery monitor display went down when the fuse on the + battery wire to the shunt became wet.  Dried it out, cleaned it up, and an occlusive dressing later healed it right up.

What kind of coffee are you drinking this morning?  

  I swear it was just 2 cups! And the pup drank part of it. I spilled the first cup. Stupid tremors are at high gear this morning. I know coffee doesn't make those better, but I can't stop my morning ritual!

jkjenn

rfuss928 said:

dhauf said:

 The MPPT controllers are more efficient than the PWM types so even in some cloud cover the controller will boost the voltage to help compensate for this,

MPPT controllers are actually less efficient due to the DC to DC voltage conversion required thus the much larger heat sink than an equivalent PWM controller.

They can not increase voltage - They reduce excess panel voltage to match battery requirements and increase charging current in the process for a small sacrifice of energy (efficiency).  An advantage when panels are near their maximum power and batteries voltage is low.  No matter how "smart" or sophisticated the controller, they can not create energy!

2 counterpoints. First, not all MPPT Controllers are created, equally. Victron makes an MPPT controller which is able to charge faster than many other MPPT controllers and PWM controllers. It does not claim to boost voltage, just convert more quickly. Secondly, what an MPPT lacks in shading, it makes up for by using the sunlight that it gets, more efficiently. Victron also uses algorithms to factor in shading and choose charging algorithms to optimize battery life.This is a point where Solar Bob has not kept with technology. His site indicates he is content wit his current set up and not really keeping up with new technology. 

Based on this, some MPPT controllers are actually more efficient and have the data to back it up.

One last point. The shading effect can be mitigated to some extenet by running the panels in parallel vs. series when expecting partial shade or cloud cover. That is beauty of a portable set up, you can adjust to meet your needs.

BrianZ

Sorry to hear of all your troubles, Jenn, but very impressed by your persistence & determination!  As a year-old T@B owner who has only made 8 trips, all in state parks with shade & hookups, but now anticipating a first time 5-day trip without any hookups this fall, I'm only now starting to think about a larger battery & maybe solar.  I still have a lot to learn about solar, but this discussion makes me think twice. 

Your new 50W panels are cute & look very practical for storage.  They make me wonder if I could mount one in place of my camera on my tripod using the motorized equatorial mount I used to automatically track the sun during last year's eclipse.  I think it's good for up to 11 lbs.  Interesting thought, but doubt it would be worth the trouble.  Seems like my biggest technology challenges last year & this year may both involve aiming something at the sun to capture its power. 😉

jkjenn

BrianZ said: OP

 Seems like my biggest technology challenges last year & this year may both involve aiming something at the sun to capture its power. 😉

Ha!!

My positioning varies based on my schedule. If I will be around at least once during the day, I try to face SE. If gone all day, I split the difference position one SE and the other facing SW. That has worked for me with no issues in the past.

The panels have a nice form factor. Renogy offers few details about what makes the Eclipse a better generation of solar panels, but that is their claim. They are a little lighter. 

I am trying to figure out a way to store them in transit to avoid clanging around. I have a big Rubbermaid that might work. Also conidering a strap around all 4 and find a spot where they fit snugly. The trailer will not work because I will be stopping for overnight stops at Walmart along the way and I do not like moving much between the TV and trailer and drawing unnecessary attention to myself.

dhauf

rfuss928 said:

dhauf said:

 The MPPT controllers are more efficient than the PWM types so even in some cloud cover the controller will boost the voltage to help compensate for this,

MPPT controllers are actually less efficient due to the DC to DC voltage conversion required thus the much larger heat sink than an equivalent PWM controller.

They can not increase voltage - They reduce excess panel voltage to match battery requirements and increase charging current in the process for a small sacrifice of energy (efficiency).  An advantage when panels are near their maximum power and battery voltage is low.  No matter how "smart" or sophisticated the controller, they can not create energy!

I disagree from all the research and testing I’ve done MPPT is superior allowing you to harvest the most energy from your panels.  There are many YouTube video and research papers on this subject as well.  MPPT controllers also do alter their input voltages as well where as PWM does not.  In some applications the efficiency of MPPT is not worth the additional cost over PWM.  Here is a link explaining how it all works and why it’s more efficient.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/White-paper-Which-solar-charge-controller-PWM-or-MPPT.pdf

Here’s a video as well and there are many others
https://youtu.be/V2b7z2eTb5o

Ratkity

BrianZ said:

Sorry to hear of all your troubles, Jenn, but very impressed by your persistence & determination!  As a year-old T@B owner who has only made 8 trips, all in state parks with shade & hookups, but now anticipating a first time 5-day trip without any hookups this fall, I'm only now starting to think about a larger battery & maybe solar.  I still have a lot to learn about solar, but this discussion makes me think twice. 

Your new 50W panels are cute & look very practical for storage.  They make me wonder if I could mount one in place of my camera on my tripod using the motorized equatorial mount I used to automatically track the sun during last year's eclipse.  I think it's good for up to 11 lbs.  Interesting thought, but doubt it would be worth the trouble.  Seems like my biggest technology challenges last year & this year may both involve aiming something at the sun to capture its power. 😉

@BrianZ you are spot on! Did you know Jenn is an amazing photographer as well? I can see the wheels turning in Jenn's head wondering if a full-sized motorized video tripod could handle a solar panel and follow the sun. LOLOL.

rfuss928

jkjenn said:

One last point. The shading effect can be mitigated to some extenet by running the panels in parallel vs. series when expecting partial shade or cloud cover. That is beauty of a portable set up, you can adjust to meet your needs.

I'm pretty sure you want to connect the panels in series when in shade to increase voltage and let MPPT convert the excess voltage to current.

MPPT controllers are not a bad thing.  They make a lot of sense on tracking systems that keep the panels near maximum power for hours.  They just are not the miracle workers many folks seem to think.

In small portable systems it is a trade off whether additional dollars are better spent on more panels or MPPT.  Different strokes for different folks.

From following you trouble shooting tale, I am most suspect of current sensing problems.  Certainly it could be internal to the controller.  Swapping in another controller seems like the next step.

Good luck!

Bob

jkjenn

rfuss928 said:

jkjenn said:

One last point. The shading effect can be mitigated to some extenet by running the panels in parallel vs. series when expecting partial shade or cloud cover. That is beauty of a portable set up, you can adjust to meet your needs.

I'm pretty sure you want to connect the panels in series when in shade to increase voltage and let MPPT convert the excess voltage to current.

MPPT controllers are not a bad thing.  They make a lot of sense on tracking systems that keep the panels near maximum power for hours.  They just are not the miracle workers many folks seem to think.

In small portable systems it is a trade off whether additional dollars are better spent on more panels or MPPT.  Different strokes for different folks.

From following you trouble shooting tale, I am most suspect of current sensing problems.  Certainly it could be internal to the controller.  Swapping in another controller seems like the next step.

Good luck!

Bob

Thanks, Bob!

I also thought that series would be better on shade, but I recently watched a test done by Gone with the Wynns that proved otherwise. These guys and the Twchnomadia guys run pretty realistic tests and I have learned a lot from them both. 

I will probably, more often than not strike a compromise and wire them in series in 2 sets of two and then wire the sets in parallel. It is pretty easy to change to all series if it is going to be a bluebird day and I am in full sun.

Sharon_is_SAM

Jenn, I called both Zamp and Renogy to see if they would sell me a solar suitcase BAG to use with our clunky Brahma lock.  No go.  Since you bought your panels from them, they may work a deal or send you to a source.  The suitcase bags are ideal if they would fit your panels.  We carry our two 100 watt suitcases upright in the van next to the van wall and a rubbermaid tub.  So, each suitcase holds essentially two 50 watt panels. 

Another idea would be a sturdy, canvas artwork holder

jkjenn

Sharon_is_SAM said:

Jenn, I called both Zamp and Renogy to see if they would sell me a solar suitcase BAG to use with our clunky Brahma lock.  No go.  Since you bought your panels from them, they may work a deal or send you to a source.  The suitcase bags are ideal if they would fit your panels.  We carry our two 100 watt suitcases upright in the van next to the van wall and a rubbermaid tub.  So, each suitcase holds essentially two 50 watt panels. 

Another idea would be a sturdy, canvas artwork holder

Those are some good ideas. I am likely going to hinge these and add either a latch or possibly magnets, and a handle. It might not happen before my September trip, though. I have a Rubbermaid tote that I need to dig out, too. Maybe I can get mom to make me a bag/case for my panels. Seems like neoprene would be nice....she really hates working with that, though.

Sharon_is_SAM

Jenn, I have sewn yoga matting as the liner of a temporary bag for our Brahma.  I like the idea of neoprene like my iPad sleeve.

jkjenn

Now that's an interesting thought....

BrianZ

jkjenn said:

BrianZ said: OP

 Seems like my biggest technology challenges last year & this year may both involve aiming something at the sun to capture its power. 😉

Ha!!

My positioning varies based on my schedule. If I will be around at least once during the day, I try to face SE. If gone all day, I split the difference position one SE and the other facing SW. That has worked for me with no issues in the past.

The panels have a nice form factor. Renogy offers few details about what makes the Eclipse a better generation of solar panels, but that is their claim. They are a little lighter. 

I am trying to figure out a way to store them in transit to avoid clanging around. I have a big Rubbermaid that might work. Also conidering a strap around all 4 and find a spot where they fit snugly. The trailer will not work because I will be stopping for overnight stops at Walmart along the way and I do not like moving much between the TV and trailer and drawing unnecessary attention to myself.

With four mini panels, I wonder if you could just arrange them in an arc from SE to SW.
There's got to be some ideas out there for carrying them.  Wondering if it would be possible to attach a big cargo net to the ceiling of the TV for a smoother ride, and stack the panels in there with some padding inbetween.  You might even glue together a box with multiple slots made from 3/16" foam board and bungee it to a side wall.

jkjenn

I think they will fit on the backseat floorboard, fairly well or I have a bin I need to try. I have though about creating dividers in the bin if it works, like people use to have for record storage.....now I have dated myself, lol.

dhauf

jkjenn said:

rfuss928 said:

jkjenn said:

One last point. The shading effect can be mitigated to some extenet by running the panels in parallel vs. series when expecting partial shade or cloud cover. That is beauty of a portable set up, you can adjust to meet your needs.

I'm pretty sure you want to connect the panels in series when in shade to increase voltage and let MPPT convert the excess voltage to current.

MPPT controllers are not a bad thing.  They make a lot of sense on tracking systems that keep the panels near maximum power for hours.  They just are not the miracle workers many folks seem to think.

In small portable systems it is a trade off whether additional dollars are better spent on more panels or MPPT.  Different strokes for different folks.

From following you trouble shooting tale, I am most suspect of current sensing problems.  Certainly it could be internal to the controller.  Swapping in another controller seems like the next step.

Good luck!

Bob

Thanks, Bob!

I also thought that series would be better on shade, but I recently watched a test done by Gone with the Wynns that proved otherwise. These guys and the Twchnomadia guys run pretty realistic tests and I have learned a lot from them both. 

I will probably, more often than not strike a compromise and wire them in series in 2 sets of two and then wire the sets in parallel. It is pretty easy to change to all series if it is going to be a bluebird day and I am in full sun.

@jkjenn You certainly know your stuff when it comes to this!  Seems like you have done a ton of research yourself.  I agree with you on this as well, they both have trade off's wiring two sets of two panels in series and then in parallel is an excellent trade off.  I've been experimenting myself with multiple controllers, battery types, and panels, then wiring them different ways and testing to see what works best for me.  I think thats really the idea, do some experimenting and see what works best for you.  There are no hard an fast rules when it comes to this stuff.  What works for one person may not be ideal for someone else.  I also wanted to mention to Jenn that it seems most fo the VIctron components carry a 5 year warranty. Perhaps you can get them to replace your controller under warranty?  Anyway this has been a fun discussion and always fun to get everyones input on things.

Dave

jkjenn

dhauf said:

jkjenn said:

rfuss928 said:

jkjenn said:

One last point. The shading effect can be mitigated to some extenet by running the panels in parallel vs. series when expecting partial shade or cloud cover. That is beauty of a portable set up, you can adjust to meet your needs.

I'm pretty sure you want to connect the panels in series when in shade to increase voltage and let MPPT convert the excess voltage to current.

MPPT controllers are not a bad thing.  They make a lot of sense on tracking systems that keep the panels near maximum power for hours.  They just are not the miracle workers many folks seem to think.

In small portable systems it is a trade off whether additional dollars are better spent on more panels or MPPT.  Different strokes for different folks.

From following you trouble shooting tale, I am most suspect of current sensing problems.  Certainly it could be internal to the controller.  Swapping in another controller seems like the next step.

Good luck!

Bob

Thanks, Bob!

I also thought that series would be better on shade, but I recently watched a test done by Gone with the Wynns that proved otherwise. These guys and the Twchnomadia guys run pretty realistic tests and I have learned a lot from them both. 

I will probably, more often than not strike a compromise and wire them in series in 2 sets of two and then wire the sets in parallel. It is pretty easy to change to all series if it is going to be a bluebird day and I am in full sun.

@jkjenn You certainly know your stuff when it comes to this!  Seems like you have done a ton of research yourself.  I agree with you on this as well, they both have trade off's wiring two sets of two panels in series and then in parallel is an excellent trade off.  I've been experimenting myself with multiple controllers, battery types, and panels, then wiring them different ways and testing to see what works best for me.  I think thats really the idea, do some experimenting and see what works best for you.  There are no hard an fast rules when it comes to this stuff.  What works for one person may not be ideal for someone else.  I also wanted to mention to Jenn that it seems most fo the VIctron components carry a 5 year warranty. Perhaps you can get them to replace your controller under warranty?  Anyway this has been a fun discussion and always fun to get everyones input on things.

Dave

Thabks, yes, I have done quite a bit of research. I worked from the T@b for about 3 months in 2016, boondocking, so I needed to ha e a solid solar plan to keep everything charged. I believe I completely recharged all but one day.

Solar equipment is evolving pretty rapidly right now, so it would not surprise me to do an overhaul in a year of two. 

Regarding the warranty, I could not in good conscience make a claim. They clearly indicate that it is not waterproof and not only was it exposed, but the terminals faced upwards, providing an opportunity for water damage.

I will now be treating the controller as portable and not leaving it up in transit.

dhauf

jkjenn said:

dhauf said:

jkjenn said:

rfuss928 said:

jkjenn said:

One last point. The shading effect can be mitigated to some extenet by running the panels in parallel vs. series when expecting partial shade or cloud cover. That is beauty of a portable set up, you can adjust to meet your needs.

I'm pretty sure you want to connect the panels in series when in shade to increase voltage and let MPPT convert the excess voltage to current.

MPPT controllers are not a bad thing.  They make a lot of sense on tracking systems that keep the panels near maximum power for hours.  They just are not the miracle workers many folks seem to think.

In small portable systems it is a trade off whether additional dollars are better spent on more panels or MPPT.  Different strokes for different folks.

From following you trouble shooting tale, I am most suspect of current sensing problems.  Certainly it could be internal to the controller.  Swapping in another controller seems like the next step.

Good luck!

Bob

Thanks, Bob!

I also thought that series would be better on shade, but I recently watched a test done by Gone with the Wynns that proved otherwise. These guys and the Twchnomadia guys run pretty realistic tests and I have learned a lot from them both. 

I will probably, more often than not strike a compromise and wire them in series in 2 sets of two and then wire the sets in parallel. It is pretty easy to change to all series if it is going to be a bluebird day and I am in full sun.

@jkjenn You certainly know your stuff when it comes to this!  Seems like you have done a ton of research yourself.  I agree with you on this as well, they both have trade off's wiring two sets of two panels in series and then in parallel is an excellent trade off.  I've been experimenting myself with multiple controllers, battery types, and panels, then wiring them different ways and testing to see what works best for me.  I think thats really the idea, do some experimenting and see what works best for you.  There are no hard an fast rules when it comes to this stuff.  What works for one person may not be ideal for someone else.  I also wanted to mention to Jenn that it seems most fo the VIctron components carry a 5 year warranty. Perhaps you can get them to replace your controller under warranty?  Anyway this has been a fun discussion and always fun to get everyones input on things.

Dave

Thabks, yes, I have done quite a bit of research. I worked from the T@b for about 3 months in 2016, boondocking, so I needed to ha e a solid solar plan to keep everything charged. I believe I completely recharged all but one day.

Solar equipment is evolving pretty rapidly right now, so it would not surprise me to do an overhaul in a year of two. 

Regarding the warranty, I could not in good conscience make a claim. They clearly indicate that it is not waterproof and not only was it exposed, but the terminals faced upwards, providing an opportunity for water damage.

I will now be treating the controller as portable and not leaving it up in transit.

@jkjenn ah ok yes I understand, I didn’t realize it was subjected to water damage.  I don’t think they would warranty it either under those conditions.  It make sense now that the issue is most likely the controller.  I guess I didn’t read that part earlier in the thread.  Sorry about the issues.  Seems like you have a good set up otherwise and just a swap of the controller should do the trick in getting it back up and running.  I know Home Depot also sells weather tight boxes you can probably use to put your controller in if you wanted it set up outside permanently.  Other option is to mount the controller under the seat inside the T@b and run some 10 gauge wires to the battery and put a quick connect for your panels outside. You can use a neutrik socket to connect up to you panels like this Neutrik NAC3MPA https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OVAXMZU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_y2XGBbP1VFSRE

Ratkity

I pulled out my manual. It says it will auto sense 24V once. If you change settings later to 12V, you have to change it back manually. I'm sure you may have already done that, but it was a shot in the dark.

Have you downloaded the Toolkit App? It will help with error codes instead of looking at the panel lights. 

jkjenn

Group diagnosis was correct. It was the controller. Running under partly cloudy skies, today. 

Panels = 4, 50w Renogy mini eclipse panels. Series, Series, parallel

jkjenn

A special shout out to @Sharon_is_SAM for offering to sell me back my 100/15 controller!!

I cannot tell you how good it feels to have this resolved before going west!

dhauf

Great!  Happy it’s all fixed!

Sharon_is_SAM

Yeah!!!  So Jenn, 15 amp SCC for how many watts of PV?

jkjenn

Sharon_is_SAM said:

Yeah!!!  So Jenn, 15 amp SCC for how many watts of PV?

I have 200w of the Renogy Panels. I am going to recheck the flexible panels, too....if I can take this horrible heat/humidity, lol. I need to check the max PV watts I can use, too.

N7SHG_Ham

I didn't read ALL the posts in this thread, but relative to charge controllers if you need an RF quite environment (I do for high frequency HAM radio gear) then wanted to note that some are very noisy, so something to consider.

jkjenn

I don't have a need for RF quiet, but thanks!

N7SHG_Ham

Just putting that out there, the system I built for my cargo trailer with a name brand charge controller turns out to have so much RF, I have to disconnect the thing to use battery power with my radio gear. Inverters can be noisy too, I have found the Samlex brand to be very quite, but haven't solved my charge controller noise yet. Carry on...