Winter Use of our T@B

DougH

My new lazy camper's way of winter camping in Colorado for 2019-2020 is a Lifesaver jerry can and camping kit.  Used it on my last two trips and it works pretty well.  I'm not sure I want to take on an awesome heated basement project yet, though it is tempting and this thread is super inspiring.  But I like BC ski touring and need a daily shower and almost a gallon of drinking water.

Soooo....
   https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TX28XD6

The shower is not strong, but I dump as much pink stuff down the shower drain as water I use, so I want a Navy shower anyway.  And the water is super filtered. I can move it to and from the car as needed to keep it thawed, and if I'm out more than a few days I carry a couple extra 5 gallon jugs.

P.S.  Light snow in Jackson today and a bunch of Colorado resorts are already making snow.  It's almost time!

[Edit 11/4/2019:  Do NOT pressurize this filter when nearly full in a cold car or camper, and then move it into a warm environment.  As everyone remembers (except me) from high school physics, that will gradually raise the pressure to a zillion psi and may burst a seal or seam.  Seller at ePrep Store was kind enough to send out a new part.  Doh!]

dCliffhanger

I like the concept but, for me, the expensive filtration component overkill. I have a jug I fill from the tap and use for both washing and drinking. No reason I can think of to pay for filtration unless I were to need to get my water from a stream or such.

DougH

I've gotten sick several times from drinking tap water.  Can put a damper on an otherwise fun trip.  Might just be a wussy constitution, or maybe I'm just lucky and hit small towns that don't exactly have "superior" grade water systems.

dCliffhanger

DougH said:

I've gotten sick several times from drinking tap water. 

Ahhh experience can be a good teacher!

ginsbuj

We were Boondocking near Silverton Colorado recently at 9500 feet. The first night was 28 degrees with no problem. The second night it dropped below freezing by 10 at night. By morning it was a chilly 16 degrees. Being originally from Minnesota I remembered how old timers used to let water faucets drip to keep them from freezing so I got up every couple hours flushed the toilet and ran some hot water through the system. Luckily nothing froze and the Alde system kept the cabin fairly toasty. Needless to say we moved 2000 feet lower. 

Verna

Hot water freezes before cold water, maybe the next time, you may want to try just running cold water through the system.

(Voice of experience in 1st home when only the hot water froze, not the cold water—luckily no burst pipes.)

Tundra57

@Tabaz did you find a way to move the black and grey tank drain up into the heated area?

Tabaz

Tundra57 - to heat the black and grey valves, I put a loop on the Alde hose that now runs inside the basement.  This new loop runs along the inside area of both valves and is held in place with 2" wide insulated foam tape.  I'll be sealing the outside of the tape with Flex Seal rubber coating later today (pics coming).  I also put a remote thermometer on the outside of the grey valve to check the temperature with my iPhone. The outside of the valve should be colder than the inside area with the Alde hose next to it, so if I see above-freezing temps while camping, then the rest of the valve should be even warmer.  If this idea doesn't work, then I'll attempt to box the areas around the valves with coroplast while leaving the Alde loop in place to heat the inside of the box.  Because of all the angles and obstructions, this would be a ton of work.

Tundra57

On my tab 400 running the Alde hose would not work. I could make a polystyrene cover to slip over when I stop like I bought for the house outside water fawcett. Or maybe I'll just wrap some 12v heating wire around just the valves.

Tabaz

I'm not familiar with the 400 valve/tank configuration.  The 3 freezing challenges with my 320 where (1) fresh and grey tanks (2) black and grey valves (and pipes leading up to the valves), and (3) fresh water tank drain spigot.  The 12V heat wire is by far the simplest and easiest method assuming you have electrical hook-ups at the campsite.  This would not work for me while boondocking.

Tundra57

Good point, I'll be boondocking sometime too. Maybe I could box in the dump valves and draw some of the warm air from the Aldi heated tank area with a little 12v fan. Got me thinking thanks.

Tabaz

Project update: 
Secured Alde basement hose to grey and black valves and insulated the sides of the trailer frame.  Still need to seal the black foam tape in the photos below.

Blue arrow is wire for the remote thermometer. Yellow arrows point to the Alde hose coming in/out of the basement:



Another angle showing the Alde hose next to the valves:

1/2" insulation along the inside of the trailer frame:


Foam tape used to secure the Alde hose to the valves.  It has a very strong adhesive side:


Foam board used on the frame sides (will also be used to cover the entire belly):

tybladesmith

@Tabaz and @gregp, I am inspired by your great work and have been studying the Alde catalog. You were disappointed with the aluminum floor plates. On page 28 -29 of catalog are they referencing 12mm aluminum PE X to run in the aluminum floor plates? Could they be glued directly to the bottom of the fresh and grey tanks? Have you seen anything about BTU output of the floor plates? What brand of remote thermometer are you using? Today is my first run at considering options and costs. There is a lot to digest here.

Tabaz

Here is the link for the remote thermometer:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0774BGBHS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I'm using two - one for the area between the fresh and grey tanks (assumed to be the coldest area in the basement, and one next to the grey valve.

The floor plate is simply a piece of aluminum.  Not sure if it has any BTU value.  Alde told me that the plate can indeed be glued to surfaces.  It is very thin and flexible.

Plate with PEX pipe in channel.  The heat from the pipe warms the aluminum floor plate. I assume the outside edges of the plate will be the coldest.

The PEX is much smaller than the Alde rubber hose.  Therefore, the Alde glycol will move slower through it.  This is a problem because it slows the fluid movement in the entire Alde system.  I didn't want the fluid going from the warm cabin into the colder basement, then slow way down as it ran along the valves outside the basement, then back into the basement and then into the cabin again.  My thinking was to have the fluid spend as little time as necessary near those valves. 

You will definitely need the tool on the left for this project.  It's used on the spring clips that connect the Alde hose to the various elbows, convectors, etc.  About $20 and worth about $500 as you use it constantly!  The one on the right is for the PEX pipe connectors.  About $50, heavy and cumbersome to use in tight spaces.  Has a cool LED light to let you know when the crimp pressure has been reached.

I abandoned the PEX loop idea near the grey and black valves because not enough warm glycol was running through the much smaller PEX pipe.  The Alde rubber hose works MUCH better and is easier to work with.

Regarding costs, I've spent a bunch of money on things that turned out to be unnecessary (hindsight is always 20/20).  First, the PEX tool, pipe and fittings added up quickly.  I'd recommend against using them. Second, I installed four mini-convectors when I could have probably gotten by with one (or zero) because the Alde hose itself generates a good deal of heat.  A loop of only hose around the perimeter of the basement would probably keep the tanks warm enough assuming you insulate the area between the frame members (and seal all openings).  This would also mean less fittings and install time. Knowing what I know now, I'm guessing this project should cost around $200 in parts and tools.

tybladesmith

Thanks @Tabaz , your knowledge and experience are very helpful. 

Tundra57

@Tabaz in really cold weather as the basement heater is dumping heat into a very cold area and then re-entering the tab now cooler did you notice any difference in the Alde ability to heat the inside of the tab whilst losing this extra heat?

Tabaz

It was 90* today in Phoenix! Will need to wait for a trip up north to test this concept in real world conditions.

Tundra57

Gotcha lol. Maybe I'll be cold first. :-)

Tabaz

Another progress report from the "Making a 3 seasons trailer that was NEVER designed to be a 4 Seasons trailer into a 4 seasons trailer" project.  If you detect a slight bit of frustration in that title, consider yourself highly perceptive.  However, HUGE progress has been made since my last update!  First some photos of what has worked:

The fresh water drain spigot (behind the pull-out step in a 320) is exposed to the elements from the factory.  Big freeze problem in colder temperatures.  The good news is that it is connected to the fresh water tank with a PEX fitting.  My limited research shows that PEX fittings can be rotated (swiveled) without compromising the integrity of the fitting.  Therefore, you simply swivel the spigot up into the basement when not in use.  An insulated cover can be used to cover the spigot during cold temperatures:   


The spring loaded cover is not designed to be installed horizontally.  The weight of the metal cover will cause it to drop to the position you see here:


Photo of the open cover with the spigot retracted.  Please cut me some slack for the awful cutting of the inside edge of the electrical cover - it was the first time I've ever used a Dremel Tool!


To retract the spigot, you simply reach into the opening and swivel the spigot downward:

The spigot cover is secured with a screw through the loop you see on the right next to the spigot above.

One of my concerns was the potentially dangerous build-up of propane in the now sealed and insulated basement area (everything between the four frame members).  Because propane is heavier than air, I installed a vent at the lowest portion of the front basement area:


I also left open the two areas at the rear of the basement frame joints for additional air flow (covered with metal mesh and bug screen):


Let's talk about Flex-Seal.  I used the spray and liquid products to cover the foam tape over the grey and black valve areas.  This really is an amazing product.  However, in this application, not even Cindy Crawford could make the end result look appealing.  It is liquid rubber.  It will not come off your hands or clothes, it drips down at the slightest provocation, it takes forever to cure (24 hours), but man o' man, it does seal that foam tape with a vengeance!  So no photos of the "Flex-Sealed Foam Tape" for now.  However, this week's plans include covering the grey and black valves with diamond plate metal as a rock guard.  Stay tuned.

dCliffhanger

I've been thinking about some kind of dump valve guard as well. My thought is it should take the form of a deflector that would slide over obstructions and not have anything that could catch and hang up. It may not be practical to protect against full impact. That will be up to the driver missing those kinds of high spots. I'm really appreciating your ideas and work. It gives me reason to put off my efforts until you discover what "doesn't work" so well. Yet, I think my Alde parts just arrived at my door....

Tundra57

I ordered an electrical normally closed valve for the cold water tank drain. It will be mounted inside the heated area. Then just a short tube sticking out. Switch on and dump water.

My Alde parts came too. I plan to start the hose at the back side of the cold tank, run to the middle to fit the radiator. Then around the front over the dump valves then back to the rear and inside. Fit the hard insulation sheets, cover the big frame holes and done. The trip down thro the floor will be via a pair of two way valves with a bypass T inside the trailer. I can completely seal off the basement loop if I need to also the valves will allow me to regulate how much flow goes into the basement.

I have to work out how to box the dump valves. Then maybe a little 12 v fan to draw warm air from the basement around the actual dump valve body when needed.

This weekend I'm dropping the bottom cover to start mounting stuff and sorting out the actual location of the pass thro holes and hose routing.

Tundra57

@Tabaz when you cut thro the trailer floor, did you fit a tube to seal the floor and hose thro that or just seal the rubber hose? The floor looks like a thin composite layer above and below with couple inches of polystyrene in between.

Tabaz

I just sealed the the top of the hole with caulk. Did not use expanding foam for fear it might constrict the flexible Alde hose as it expanded and hardened.

Tabaz

Project completed!  Built a rock guard made of diamond plate to protect the insulated black and grey drain pipes and valves.  This was not meant to enclose those valves to retain heat.  That would have taken a ton of work far beyond my patience and ability.

Yellow arrow is pointing to the driver side front stabilizer.  It's located very close to the black drain 90* elbow coming out of the cabin floor making it almost impossible to enclose that area.


Side view of the box.  I didn't lose any ground clearance - just the thickness of the foam insulation around the ABS drain pipes and thickness of the diamond plate.  Very happy about that.


Front view of the box.  Arrow is pointing to the black drain opening.


Top view looking down through the Outback rack:


Bad photo of the rear of the box.  Arrow is pointing to the 90* black drain elbow coming out of the cabin floor.  Blue arrow is pointing to the steps for reference.

Will test everything out in a few weeks, but very happy with the results so far.  This was my first metal bending and pop rivet project, so I would have done a few things differently knowing what I know now.

tybladesmith

@Tabaz Very good work. I like your approach. 

Tabaz

Please note this rock guard is not intended to protect the pipe/valves from direct contact with a solid object (the ground). This will only protect the Flex Seal covered insulated tape from road debris during transit.  I sit back now and contemplate all the hours and frustration experienced during this project. Will it work? Time will tell. Could NuCamp have designed a truly 4 Seasons trailer? Absolutely yes.  There were so many unexpected problems that cropped up based on factory design considerations. The bottom line is I love my trailer. I love the craftsmanship of the wood cabinets.  I even love the fine, thin lines of caulk throughout the cabin. This is a great trailer right off the dealer’s lot. If we can make it better with a little of extra effort, let’s go for it.

Sharon_is_SAM

Has anyone insulated their water hose with a pool noodle? 

Line Insulation For An RV So The Water Doesn’t Freeze

If you have an RV and are planning on taking a trip to a cooler climate, this hack might just save you! Bring pool noodles to insulate your water and sanitation lines. You’ll be thanking the noodles in the morning when neither line freezes up and you’re able to utilize the water.

Tabaz

Decided to bite the bullet and see if the valve areas can be completely sealed from the elements:

Yep - I removed the propane tube for better access to the grey valve area.  The good news is that my tongue weight went WAY down.  The better news is that it looks like both valves can be enclosed.  Note the cable-activated grey valve line coming out of the cardboard template.  Most others would not have to deal with this configuration (a definite plus).  Will post photos of progress moving forward. 

Tabaz

Success!! I was able to completely enclose the areas around the valves in diamond plate.  The tricky part was the black pipe elbow near the driver side front stabilizer jack and how to attach the rear diamond plate to the coroplast without drilling into the grey tank.  This is a very doable project if you know you will be enclosing the valves from the start (no foam wrap, no Flex Seal, etc.).  Photos in a few days to follow. 

Tabaz

Well this was fun! filling the diamond plate enclosure with blown-in insulation:





Yellow arrow pointing to a dip on the top cover for water drainage.  Black arrow pointing to maximum location box can be placed without hitting the Outback aluminum platform:


Note bend in diamond plate to accommodate movement of stabilizer bar.  Blue arrow pointing to area where diamond plate touches frame:


Another shot of the stabilizer bar.  You will need to trim all excess caulking at the base of the black pipe 90* elbow in order to make this enclosure work.  Black arrow shows point diamond plate is secured to the coroplast.


Yellow arrow pointing to front of trailer.  Black arrow shows cap securing the diamond plate to the coroplast.  This is tricky because the grey tank is above the coroplast at this location.  A simple solution was to use that flat metal bar in the ceiling to hold light fixtures.  Simply cut a slit in the coroplast, slide the bar into the slit, move it back so the center hole is visible, insert the threaded rod and secure with the cap or nut.

Nice shot the flat bottom.  Arrow points to the bend needed to avoid the stabilizer.


Will finish up be cutting out the excess caulk and cleaning things up in general. PM me if you're interested in doing this mod.  There are lots of shortcuts that will save you time and money.