Winter Use of our T@B

ChanW

Interesting idea. Just a word of caution though, @gregp, cuz I'm a little curious about how the antifreeze would get inside the gate valve with this method.

When I learned this particular lesson about the gate valve, water had worked its way into the works of the valve, the place that the blade pulls back into. 

Then when the water froze, it expanded and cracked that 'blade housing'.

Sharon_is_SAM said:

@gregp. Somewhere I read that you can use a spray bottle filled with antifreeze and spray the gate valves(s) of the tanks.  That would be an easy fix.

gregp

@ChanW Thanks for the insight, so far with my one overnight test at 24 degrees and about a half gallon of anti freeze in both the gray and black tanks no problem with freezing at the gates.  More snow forecaster for the Cascades this week so will be up at Crystal next weekend for two days.  Will report how it works out.   

stevenmotta

Wouldn't this solve the issue with water lines freezing?
https://www.campingworld.com/freeze-ban-heated-drinking-water-hose-25?CAWELAID=120030630000000649&gclid=Cj0KCQiAurjgBRCqARIsAD09sg_aMpCDCPO_fiM14Kwuwc0uhyslgSvddapCv7eujWbw7n_iEm72HFsaAgvZEALw_wcB

Tabaz

stevenmotta said:

Wouldn't this solve the issue with water lines freezing?
https://www.campingworld.com/freeze-ban-heated-drinking-water-hose-25?CAWELAID=120030630000000649&gclid=Cj0KCQiAurjgBRCqARIsAD09sg_aMpCDCPO_fiM14Kwuwc0uhyslgSvddapCv7eujWbw7n_iEm72HFsaAgvZEALw_wcB

It seems all the water lines are inside the trailer except for the cold water line coming from the fresh water tank located under the cabin floor (and exposed to possible freezing).  Doesn't the City Water inlet bypass the fresh water tank entirely?  If so, wouldn't this heated hose work assuming the fresh water tank is drained?  From the factory tour photos, it appears the black water tank is above the cabin floor while the grey water tank is below it (and exposed to possible freezing).  Assuming you didn't fill the grey tank completely and waited to dump during warmer temperatures, why would the grey tank need to be heated?

Tabaz

Just camped in freezing temperatures and used the heated garden hose Steven recommended above (I was connected to city water).  Also poured 1/2 gallon of RV anti-freeze down the black and grey tanks each.  Camped for several days and used the sink, toilet and shower without any problems.  Dumped when the temps were somewhat mild without any valves sticking.  However, I'll be following Greg's lead and adding an Alde convector to the undercarriage to heat the fresh and grey tanks while boondocking.  By the way, the folks at Alde USA are VERY helpful and consumer-oriented.  Unfortunately, none speak with a cool Swedish accent.

Awca12a

@Tabaz I've been going back and forth on the Alde solution as well.  The upside is that you tap into the existing system and so long as the temps are high enough inside, the sole circulator underneath should provide enough heat output.  Then it's just a matter of closing-off gaps and insulating.  I like that approach.

Problem I've been wrestling with is that it doesn't solve the problem of heating the gate valves/plumbing nor will it work while driving.  Wind chill would prevent keeping even the grey tanks operating between locations so that would have to be dumped and travelling to the boondock site would mean the freshwater tanks have to be empty as well unless one was willing to run the Alde while travelling.    

I'm going with just the electric pads mostly so I don't have to involve the Alde and partially because I'm concerned that the outermost radiator in the undercarriage only radiates heat while the indoor units are operating meaning I don't really have control of heat underneath the trailer. I'm going with  1-1/2" aluminum C channel to hold the 6.5R ISO board I'm using for a belly pan insulation extension.

Great to see so much dialogue on this and people trying different options.   Looking forward to seeing how your Alde solution works out.   Hoping it does.   

Tabaz

Awca12a:

I don't plan on camping anywhere with freezing temperatures during the day, so I won't go as far as Greg by adding an insulated "basement." Also, I don't want to do anything to decrease ground clearance.  I looked at the heating pad idea first, but now may use both based on your comments above.  Electric heating pads while traveling and Alde at the campsite.  The fresh water drain tap and sewer valves still need a viable solution to keep them from freezing.  Perhaps some electric heat tape and a DIY cover that can be put on at the campsite?  

Awca12a

@Tabaz I'll post my solution to the valves if that's of any help but it will use the 7.5-watt non-thermoregulated elbow pads and then boxed them in.  Drain valve is the last problem to solve but I think that will just be tucked away with a 4-watt non-thermoregulated elbow pad tied to the dump circuit.   Not sure how you can install the ALDE without losing some ground clearance so I'm interested to see how you do that.

Tabaz

There's actually plenty of room for the Alde convector in front of the fresh water tank and next to the grey waste tank.  Just lower the front portion of the coroplastic sheet covering the undercarriage to take a look.  In addition, there appears to be about 1/2" to 3/4" of space between the bottom of the fresh water tank and the top of the coroplastic.  This would allow a sheet of thin insulation to rest on top of the coroplastic.  The large axle inspection holes on the frame behind the tires would also need to be sealed.  Please send a link to those elbow pads.  With that low wattage, they could easily be used when boondocking.

Awca12a

https://www.etrailer.com/RV-Fresh-Water/LaSalle-Bristol/277-000161.html

Sharon_is_SAM

Here are a couple of ideas from the newsletter RVTravel.net regarding prevention of plumbing freeze.  These involve stationary RVs.

“I have used a 60watt Flood light installed in a cheap metal flexible desk lamp that I place in the fresh water tank bay and leave plugged in while we are hooked up – works well and have not had any frozen pipes or water tank/ pump issues down to -30 F so far.”

AND

“With the aid of Winnebago’s excellent chassis drawings, I identified where the water lines are routed. I then installed a low-draw circulation fan to flow a small amount of air from the cabin, through the inner walls and floor spaces.

Now, using the efficient catalytic heater, I keep the cabin at 45-50F or so, and the circulation fan keeps the air in the ducts from getting below freezing. This solution even works when boondocking.”

AND

“We solved the freezing problem by adding a hybrid electric heating system called the Cheap Heat system. With this system we can heat our RV all year by keeping it plugged in.”

Didn’t @Dalehelman experiment with using a fan to circulate warm air over the plumbing?

Tabaz

I've decided to incorporate ideas from gregp (Alde convector) and Awca (heating pads) into a dual system for the tank holding area.  Will take photos and measurements as the project progresses.  Will drop the coroplastic covering tomorrow and order parts on Monday.  Thanks everyone for your ideas, suggestions and inspiration! 

Awca12a

@Tabaz you’ve got me thinking of doing the same.  To make that happens I guess you’d have to find the last convector in the line and then tap into it.  According to this factory tour video that last convector is under the shower.  I’m not a plumbing guy.  How would you add that additional convector?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=if066aMnC2U

gregp

A quick update for those contemplating this mod, have used the 320S now for a number of skiing weekends with all of the systems working great, so far am very happy with the result.   This weekend has been the coldest at 13 degrees with very gusty winds and 12 in of new snow. Am plugged in to 110 and have kept the Alde system on full time. I have had to manually bleed air from the Alde system several times to avoid air locks.  The air in the system resulted from extending the system to the enclosed holding tank area. The inside temp has stayed around 60 degrees so may need a small electric heater as a supplement.  The enclosed tank area has been at a constant 55 degrees.  Still putting some antifreeze in each tank too to protect the valves.

Greg

Small correction it actually got down to 8 degrees last night.  Burrr

Tabaz

Awca - I have a 320 (similar to Greg). I would be tapping into the convector under the passenger seat pedestal like he did. So glad I just saw Greg's post above.  He's using a "mini" convector and its more than enough for the tank area.  Alde is out of the mini's, so I almost bought a regular convector for that area.  That would obviously be over-kill.

jkjenn

I am not sure how I previously missed this impressive thread! Wow! @gregp was the primary purpose of the additional connector and insulation to keep your freshwater from freezing?

It makes me think of my own situation. I have a smaller 5 gallon tank that is inside the T@b, in the bottom cabinet, below the kitchen sink.

 I have postulated that I might be able to use the shower in winter temps by not traveling with water already in the tank and keeping dumping some antifreeze in the tanks if I kept the Alde running and if I kept the bathroom door open to let heat get inside to warm up the area where the pump is.

The purpose of not traveling with fresh water in the tank is to keep it from freezing while driving as the inside of the T@b can get quite cold.

ChanW

@gregp, I'm surprised that you can only get it up to 60°, with those outside temps.

I see you don't have the fridge vent covered (next to the door). We found that to be a big source of draft, especially in the wind. (It's for the fridge 'waste heat', which you might as well not waste!)

Also in ours there was a large gap (drafty) between the insulation and the outer shell, under the back shelf, which I taped up with aluminum tape (really sticky).

Also, around the AC unit was drafty.

Those fixes made a big difference for us. 

DougH

@ChanW : Thanks for the reminder.  Without propane, elec only, I had to use a supplemental heater too recently...   and I remember once seeing daylight from across the camper from all that fridge venting.

gregp

@jkjenn yes the idea was to be able to use fresh and grey water systems in the winter.  Actually got down to 8 degrees last night and no problems, even took a shower.  @ChanW thanks for the insights on the fridge vents, I had no clue we could cover those so will give this a try. Did you cover both vents?  Also I have had to bleed air from the Alde system a couple of times to avoid an airlock but I think that issue is now resolving.  Also thanks for the identifying gap issue between the insulation and the outer shell behind the back shelf, I am going to pull the shelf out and see if I have the same problem.  I do have the AC unit opening fully sealed and have replaced it with a microwave.  Hopefully all of the this will help!  Thanks!  Also @Tabaz did you go ahead and enclose your tanks yet?  Am curious how the project went? Drop me note if I can be of any help!

Greg

ChanW

@gregp, ours has the 3-way fridge, which only has the one upper vent for waste heat. I found a Tupperware lid that fits it pretty well, and then hold that on with 'j-hook' type screws. I'm sure there's an easier way though, maybe with magnets.

Tabaz

Thanks again to grepP for being the first to trailblaze this mod.  Here's where I'm at today.
Photo of the Alde floor mesh that dissipates heat from the Alde floor heating system (see their parts catalog).  Using PEX flexible pipe from Home Depot instead of the Adle pipe (only comes in HUGE rolls). Did a test with very hot water and the red pipe got very warm, so should heat the aluminium mesh.  The mesh will be wrapped around the PEX pipe next to the valves (next photo).

The PEX "loop" on the inside of the grey and black valves.  Red arrow is my cable-activated grey valve (non-factory).  Yellow arrow is bottom of black valve.


Bottom view of the Loop.  Yellow line follows the standard Alde rubber hose around the grey tank.

Top view of the Loop. Pipe is very flexible, so should huge the ABS pipe pretty well.

New mini-convectors at rear of trailer frame looking towards front of T@B.  Blue arrow is convector, yellow is new hole for new Alde hose, grey arrow points to back of fresh water tank. 

Two mini-convectors along the driver's side of the T@B.  Grey tank is to the left. This shot faces the rear of the trailer.

Rear convector with Alde hose clip (red), New hole into the cabin (not metal brace to left of yellow arrow), existing propane line into the cabin (blue).

The new "basement" convectors continue the factory "loop" in the cabin.  The PEX hose forms a sub-loop in the main hose line.  Still need to figure out how to cover the PEX loop with the aluminum mesh.

dCliffhanger

This is what I want to do to mine but will try to preserve as much ground clearance as i can. That may mean I fit less insulation and then need to pipe more heat down there. How does one contact Alde? Their online site says they work only through dealers.

Tabaz

Attached is their parts catalog.  Speak with Mandy at 360-597-3017.  She is very helpful and a joy to work with.  No ground clearance lost with this mod.  I'll be adding 1/2" of foam board on top of the existing Colorplast belly covering.  I think I've found a way to swivel the fresh water tank drain up so that it no longer hangs down off the frame (it will now live in the heated basement).  It will be covered with an insulated 4-gang electrical cover.  Photos to come when I get that far.

dCliffhanger

Tabaz said:

Attached is their parts catalog.  Speak with Mandy at 360-597-3017. 

Excellent! Thanks

dCliffhanger

I'm thinking of incorporating a 3-way valve so I can manually, divert fluid into a separate basement heating loop, or not. No sense wasting heat there if no freezing temps or not carrying fluids. I'll have a remote temp sensor down there. All theoretical so far as I've barely used my new T@b so far.

Tabaz

I considered the 3-way valve and remote sensor but found they would be impractical with my design.  Isn't that a great parts catalog?!  I actually considered using their towel warmer to heat the drain valves!

Tabaz

First test of the "basement heater" was a success.  The Alde hose and 4 mini-convectors generated a good deal of heat (considering its 85 degrees now in Phoenix).  Once the underbelly is insulated and covered, no way will the grey or fresh tanks freeze.  I didn't realize the Alde rubber hose generates heat in addition to the convectors, so another plus there (i.e. the entire perimeter of the basement is generating heat).  I was a little disappointed with the heat generated by the 1/2" red PEX tubing.  Will definitely be replacing the PEX with the larger Alde hose.  Once enclosed, I can't see the black or grey drain valves freezing.  Thinking of making a valve enclosure out of Coroplast with magnets that attach to the metal frame - only to be used at the campsite.  Any enclosure ideas for this area would be appreciated.

Tabaz

And NO LEAKS! 

ChanW

@Tabaz, nice project!

One thought that crossed my mind while looking at your photos....

You seem to have a lot of connectors in your pex loop. From the reading I've done while working on our home under-floor radiant system, they say that each fitting that you include in your 'loop' reduces the flow rate of your system. Length of the loop also affects the flow, both due to friction.

That might be a reason that your pex loop is underperforming.

Regarding insulation: be sure to leave a 'gap' between the insulation and the tubing. The airspace allows the heat to distribute more thoroughly.

Tabaz

Thanks Chan!  The other problem with my PEX configuration is that I have two "T" fittings in the main (large) hose.  I'm guessing most of the fluid just bypasses these joints.  That's another reason to use the larger Alde hose - I can replace the T's with two 90* elbows - this would force all the fluid to the loop next to the drain valves, then back into the basement.