Winter Use of our T@B

Verna

@Tabaz , I don’t understand all I know about the articulating hitches. 

I think our hitches just need to be broken in and we just have to figure out the why’s for when they give us problems. It’s pretty much automatic now after almost 18 months to know what to do when it won’t disconnect or when it needs an inch of adjustment to close. 

These hitches work well and they are safer than the simpler ones as far as not coming open accidentally. 

Tabaz

The articulating hitch allows for different planes between the TV and trailer.  Simply rotate (by hand) the receiver in the TV to match the plane of the trailer.  The trailer hitch drops down into a U-shaped slot in the receiver.  Just a suggestion.

Verna

That’s good to know, @Tabaz . Thanks for the info. 

gspdx

Have had the same issue.  I did one time adjust the Tab until it felt like the truck and tab were aligned pretty well with minimal tension. I then pulled the pin on my hitch and slowly pulled forward.  The hitch came out of the receiver and then the hitch was easily removed from the trailer.

Probably not my smartest decision as I would expect bad things could happen, but it worked.

Jackie_Dave

gspdx said:

Have had the same issue.  I did one time adjust the Tab until it felt like the truck and tab were aligned pretty well with minimal tension. I then pulled the pin on my hitch and slowly pulled forward.  The hitch came out of the receiver and then the hitch was easily removed from the trailer.

Probably not my smartest decision as I would expect bad things could happen, but it worked.

90% of the time that's the only way we can get unhitched in our driveway. We've tried everything. The pavement slopes down from the rear of the T@b to the hitch putting a lot of force on the ball and hitch. We've tried everything to reduce the pressure point to no avail. Last resort is to chock the wheels, put the jack down till it just touches the pavement, pull the pin from the hitch, pull forward ever so slowly and once separated the hitch will release. We have a utility trailer and have never had a problem hitching or unhitching in the same spot. They say it's a safety thing. I say it's a pain in the . . .  well, you know. 

DougH

@dCliffhanger ; @Tabaz
Adding a 3 ohm 100W resistor to those cheap panels I picked up had the desired effect.  Current at 12.5V dropped from 8A down to 2.5A or only 30W being pulled from the solar bank per pad instead of 100W each.
The only confusing part is which component do I attach to the water tank?  Because after five minutes at 30W, the resistor seems like it would thaw things out quicker.  

I'm happy with the drain heat trace wrap I'm using, but will source a different panel that is natively much lower wattage, and with a lower cutoff temperature than these which seems to be 150F.  I don't like the idea of having to bolt those resistors to the camper frame with high temperature conductive gell just to keep them under 300F.

dCliffhanger

@DougH  I really like your approach in adding the ability to control the power draw.

DougH

dCliffhanger said:

@DougH  I really like your approach in adding the ability to control the power draw.

But the resistance modification was clearly not the right way to go with such extreme heat. (sigh)
Wish I could find a 10-15W pad with a thermostat.  Then I could put 2 or 3 on each tank and use a rotary switch to adjust the power needed.  But the smaller pads like the 7.5W Facon elbow 3x13" units don't have thermostats.  Don't think I want that level of manual control unless there's no other low power option.

dCliffhanger

DougH said:

dCliffhanger said:

@DougH  I really like your approach in adding the ability to control the power draw.

But the resistance modification was clearly not the right way to go with such extreme heat. (sigh)

Wish I could find a 10-15W pad with a thermostat.  Then I could put 2 or 3 on each tank and use a rotary switch to adjust the power needed.  But the smaller pads like the 7.5W Facon elbow 3x13" units don't have thermostats.  Don't think I want that level of manual control unless there's no other low power option. 

Perhaps a solid state controllers like a fan motor controller could be used instead of resistance? That would be even more efficient.

DougH

@dCliffhanger ; Had an extra one lying around from vent fan purchase.  Doh... didn't think to use them with the heater panels.  I think I prefer 81F after 10 minutes at 2A versus 310F.  Thanks!

Now to find a 4 channel thermocouple monitor and four contact thermocouples with 15-20ft leads for the tops of both drains and upper sides of both tanks.

BDA123

DougH and TabAZ, love the work you are doing. I have a 2018 TAB 400 and want to run it 4 seasons entirely boondockable with my Honda 2200i or propane as backup. I have the solar/battery system hammered out to be able to keep it cool in AZ (where I live, although I spend a lot of time in the mountains) during the summer. I figure if the system can work to cool in AZ at 115 F I should be able to find a way to consistently heat at 20 F. I think the jury is still out on whether to use electricity via ALDE (with propane as backup) or use electric heating pads but I really appreciate you being the trail blazers as well as everyone else in this thread.

tybladesmith

@DougH I used an Auber Instruments PID Temperature controller for a gas forge controller. You might like to look at their site for ideas also Omega although they are much more expensive. I would suggest RTD 100 temperature probes. You might also investigate Omega's fixed 50 deg. temperature switches to control directly. FYI Like you need another hobby! (LOL)

DougH

@tybladesmith : Hang on a second. If I tied the probes into a PID controller that adjusted the pulse widths to the heating pads and cables, and configured the response values, wouldn't I run the risk of ending up with an intelligent system that dynamically kept the tanks and drains just above 35F with the least amount of power required for the conditions, be it 43W or 125W?  Could go with an Auburn or Omega domain specific controller, or just use some other a general purpose I/O device and configure it with Matlab or LabVIEW.  Been there, done that.
However, what would be left for me to do?  How could my wife and I debate whether the gray tank should at 0.8A or 1.7A due to the strong winds, when the system would always know the optimal answer?
You're right...  too smart a solution and I'd need to find something else to do.  I might spend all my time snowshoeing or skiing instead of fiddling with switches and knobs and constantly checking current cycles and temperature readings.  Better yet I should skip the thermocouples entirely and only look at the Victron load current to see when each heating pad turns off at 65F.  Everytime that happens I drop the current a little until it barely has enough power to cycle between 45 and 65F for the current outside temperature.
  
Links to something similar:
https://www.instructables.com/id/Temperature-Control-With-Arduino-and-PWM-Fans/
https://simplyautomationized.blogspot.com/2013/09/raspberry-pi-pidpwm-12v-fan-controller.html?m=1
$199:  https://tetech.com/product/tc-48-20-oem/

tybladesmith

@DougH I like the way you think! You should have seen the geek look on my face reading your post. Where will the current draw end up?
 
A friend used to buy from the JC Whitney catalog. He added up all the installed devices on his car that promised 20% fuel savings. He said, every week he would pull over to drain gas out of the tank that he had saved. LOL

Seriously, you are going to blow some Amish minds!

DougH

@tybladesmith : Similar solutions like https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/Arduino-PID-temperature-control are of course single channel solutions at only $20/channel (as you say, Omega is pricier).  But really there's a relationship between the gray tank drain and the gray tank heating circuit.  Fighting for milliwatts here, but in a perfect world those two channels would learn from each other.   Sadly I have a mandatory family road trip next week, and there's a foot or more expected in Southern Colorado, so I'm just going to stick with switches and knobs for the near term. 

tybladesmith

@DougH - Looking forward to your on the road experience! @Tabaz will be gathering data also!

ChanW

@DougH, also let us know how the Tab feels on snowpacked highways, eh?

Enquiring minds want to know!

(Or are all-tracks the next part of your Tab improvement-plan?)

DougH

ChanW said:

@DougH, also let us know how the Tab feels on snowpacked highways, eh?

Enquiring minds want to know!

(Or are all-tracks the next part of your Tab improvement-plan?)

@ChanW :  I've honestly never had problems, even in deep stuff.  My wagon can't drive in any deeper than 7-8" without becoming a snowplow, so when I say deep, that's a relative description. And if I completely lose it in a ditch, that'll be a perfect time to get a 2020 Boondock... assuming the insurance company let's me grab some of our mods from the salvage unit.  

I have brand new Blizzak WS90s on the all-wheel drive wagon, chains all the way around, and keep this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078Y3CPKZ
...in the back.  It loops over the rear hitch or a front tow hook, along with an extra long tow strap. Grew up outside of Chicago with lots of XC ski trips to WI & MI in the winter.  Better prepared than not.  I did have to use the tow strap once when I did something dumb in the parking lot at Berthoud Pass (a BC skier's haven).



Although...  a wildly popular thread on r/Colorado this morning was a slight mistake on I-70:



I'm just waiting in anticipation for Tundra57's PDF.  It's not that cold in Colorado yet, so I won't know if I run out of heating ejuice until the subzero nights in January.

ChanW

Oh dear! Lucky? to get it between the goal posts?

@DougH, what kind of chains do you use?  Also on the Tab?

When we did our mid-winter drive into Ontario, I really wished I'd had chains, on the Tab at least. Just don't fancy seeing the Tab outside the drivers window, racing me down some hill!

ChanW

Or are the Blizzaks considered 'chains'? Interesting technology.

ChanW said:

......

@DougH, what kind of chains do you use?  Also on the Tab?

When we did our mid-winter drive into Ontario, I really wished I'd had chains, on the Tab at least. Just don't fancy seeing the Tab outside the drivers window, racing me down some hill!

DougH

@ChanW : Yup that's what they were debating...  how many points to award if the driver didn't make it all the way past the goal line.

I haven't put chains on the T@B.  I could be waaay wrong, but somehow intuitively as non-steering non-driven tires it feels like they're not necessary. If you used the Purple Line movers to help get up a hill that'd be a different matter.  

I have K-Summits for the wagon.  Love them, and have used that brand with last three vehicles.  Only really needed with steep grades and ice, or when the departments of transportation require them for some roads, but that often only applies to commercial vehicles.  Good snow tires and driving at an appropriate speed and distance for the conditions is almost always enough until you hit that 13% grade that's sheer ice. 

But the K-Summits attach VERY quickly and are great when you don't have a whole lot of clearance between the tire and wheel well.  Not a problem with my current vehicle, but tolerances were tighter on my previous Mini Countryman Cooper S.  That was the best car I've ever had for snow.  I lightly modified the suspension and engine, and it just loved the snow.  Ate it up like a rally car.  Just unbelievable traction in that particular all-wheel drive system. Fond memories of power sliding snowy corners through the mountains with total control.  Not while towing of course.

DougH

ChanW said:

Or are the Blizzaks considered 'chains'? Interesting technology

Legally I think some areas say you have to have either snow tires with some specific amount of tread left, or have chains on whenever there's X inches of fresh snow. So yes in a way. This year Colorado has said they'll start enforcing the 6/32" of required tread on snow tires a bit more. Brand new for passenger cars 11-13 32conds is the starting point on most snow tires. 

The difference between M&S touring tires and snow tires is getting closer and closer which will save everybody $$$ and garage storage.  Think there's 2 tires that just came out in 2019 as M&S but they're still snow tire certified and can be driven all four seasons with reasonable wear distances. I've had the Bridgestone WS80s twice before and they've had decent winter traction while not being horrible in the dry.  The WS90s allegedly will have even more durability for driving longer into spring in case of that last late season snowstorm, without sacrificing snow and ice performance.  May even come in handy now that Colorado and the Texas panhandle are routinely getting several inches of hail in the summer.  Time will tell...  they're new for this year. 

DougH

tybladesmith said:

I would suggest RTD 100 temperature probes. You might also investigate Omega's fixed 50 deg. temperature switches to control directly.

Still going cheap in case the whole experiment turns into a fail. Just got ten very inexpensive three meter -40F to 660F K-type thermocouples and a couple simple non-data logging display units that don't even have an alarm or calibration function.  There's some variability as a result, but they all work.  So I can monitor the tanks and drains, outside, cabin and fridge temperatures plus or minus a degree (but not a tenth of a degree).

db_cooper

There's several good options now for snow rated tires that can be run year round with decent treadwear warranties.  They're referred to as All Weather instead of All Season.  Good luck finding a tire salesman that knows this in the PNW though!

I just put Falken Wildpeak AT3's on the Xterra, and Goodyear Assurances on our Outback.  The Assurance's were a little higher rated than the Nokian All Weather (WG3? I think).  I never let tires get below 6/32nds with all of the rain we get. 

Unfortunately still no snow in the PNW, so I haven't had a chance to try them out.  They've been great in the rain so far, and fine on dry pavement.   They are difficult to find,  I bought the Falkens online, and had to have Discount Tire order the Goodyears.

tybladesmith

@DougH looks like a great choice for instrumentation to learn what we all want to know!

tybladesmith

@DougH Pg. 20 of the Alde catalog gives a formula for power required from the boiler VS the change in temperature from boiler incoming to outgoing glycol temperatures.
Found this primer on thermodynamics to help get my Geek on!
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermodynamics-t_36.html

But you probably already know all this stuff. LOL

Tabaz

The first results camping in below freezing conditions with Alde Basement mod.
12:30 am
outside temp - 30*
dump valves - 67*
between tanks - 64*
cabin - 66*
glycol - 149*

5:30 am
outside temp - 29*
dump valves - 67*
between tanks - 65*
cabin - 66*
glycol - 147*

Test conducted using shore power.  Did not notice any excessive cycling of the Alde unit. Very pleased with results.

DougH

@Tabaz ; Congratulations, very nice results.  Fingers crossed NuCamp will adopt y'all's design for the 2021 models.

Tabaz

Day Two overnight results almost identical to Day One, but also measured temp of black tank located under toilet using laser thermometer through opening in wall of cabinet under sink. It is 55* while cabin is 68*. I prop up the access door in the shower, leave the glass shower door ajar and also leave the door to the bottom wood cabinet open. These measures seem to provide enough warmth to the black tank without need for heat tape or an Alde convector. However, it does require moving all that out of the way each time you use the toilet during the night. Ugh!

Tabaz

Problem solved. Reversed the door opening on the lower cabinet below the sink. Before bed, simply open the door (hinges now on right). Bought a cheap expanding curtain rod that holds the access hatch door open to allow airflow in the area near the water pump. Midnight bathroom runs just got much simpler!