Winter Use of our T@B

ChanW

Wow, that's pretty serious!

Going to Antarctica?

The Tab would look good behind the "Antarctica VW Beetle"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHRU2OuJIsw

dCliffhanger

I'm in the process of doing an experiment. My T@B 320s is outside at temps starting at 4 degrees this morning. I had it plugged in running 1KW of power with temp set at 40 degrees. The Alde console showed 38. I have a separate remote sitting on the counter which was reading 31 degrees. As an experiment I set the temp to 60 and kicked up the power to 2KW.  This was at 8am.  I wanted to see if it could achieve and maintain a decent comfort level in such conditions. As of Noon, the temperature has risen 17 degrees to 47 with a sunny outside temp of 16. I am encouraged that I will, eventually, achieve liveable temps especially if I chose to kick on the propane. I just returned from an unwinterized trip to Arkansas where I did see some barely subfreezing mornings and found my little cocoon to be pleasingly comfortable between 70-76. Unon returning into subfreezing and dropping temps and hastily ran through a blow out winterization in the dark. It was only my second run through so I'm nervous I may have missed something - hence why I turned the heat on until i could double check. In fact, I forgot to spray the gate valves with antifreeze. Crossing my fingers until I get a thaw.

dCliffhanger

Location of the remote thermometer made 10 degrees difference. Alde thermometer showed 58. I placed my remote next to the Alde and got about same temp. Then I kicked power up to 2Kw and set thermostat to 70. Even with sun gone and outside temp at 13, inside temp registers 68. Now seeing if it holds there at 1Kw of power.

Sharon_is_SAM

My experience says you will need the 2 kw to maintain that inside temperature with that extreme weather.  Keep us posted.

tybladesmith

Great real world testing dCliffhanger. Did the remote temp read 48* when the Alde read 58? Am I remembering the remote probe location correctly as on the black water valve?
 I have been wondering about uninsulated areas like the wheel wells and do you have the AC cabinet?  Would those areas benefit from insulation like Reflectex or foam?

Great work! I would love to see your T@B and get a revised Alde materials list if you are willing to share.


Tom in Platteville, WI

dCliffhanger

tybladesmith said:

Great real world testing dCliffhanger. Did the remote temp read 48* when the Alde read 58? Am I remembering the remote probe location correctly as on the black water valve?
 I have been wondering about uninsulated areas like the wheel wells and do you have the AC cabinet?  Would those areas benefit from insulation like Reflectex or foam?

Great work! I would love to see your T@B and get a revised Alde materials list if you are willing to share.


Tom in Platteville, WI

Yes, there was about 10 degrees lower temp on the remote sitting near the sink. It was probably getting a lot of cold from the front window. I also have another thermometer mounted to the door frame about an inch from the wall. That read even colder. After turning from 2kw to 1kw temp dropped about 5 degrees and held at 55 with an outside temp of 12 degrees.  I just moved the remote into the Alde piping area, with the seat cushion removed and set the thermostat to 45. I figure the cool will pool down there. Once I see what happens there, I'll probably cover with the cushion. That compartment will benefit from the hot Alde hosing in there. I'm thinking that 45 is probably my lowest safe setting to avoid freezing in compartments. Hence the testing.  I'm starting to wonder how my electric bill will look this month. It's an investment in knowledge!

Tom, we are almost neighbors.

Lidja

Don’t want to interrupt a fascinating thread, but wondering if anyone is aware of NuCamp making the 2020 T@B400 a 4-season coach? I just came across this ad and was surprised to see 4-season listed as a feature. Is this just sales hype? Maybe a dealership that doesn’t really know its product? Or has NuCamp actually made winter-friendly adjustments on the 2020s?

https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2020-Nucamp-T%40B-400-Boondock-Edge-5009692758

Of course, “4-season” is a very loose term, so maybe just the fact that the trailer has double-pane windows is enough for this dealer to advertise it as a 4-season unit...

Tabaz

Four Seasons to me means a comfortable cabin and no damage resulting from bursting plumbing.  I’m confident the Alde is able to keep the cabin warm.  However any fresh water pipes or drain valves exposed to the elements will be damaged.  NuCamp does not produce a true “Four Seasons” trailer for this reason.

Tabaz

Quick test results.  Temperatures at 7:00 am =  Outside 59*, Glycol fluid 70*, Center area between fresh and grey tanks in "basement" 69*, and area next to grey valve in new diamond plate enclosure 64*.  After one hour of running the Alde on propane, temps were Outside 60*, Glycol fluid 167*, Center area 79* and valve area 74*.  Keep in mind the valve probe is attached to an empty grey tank at this time.  Did not measure the interior of the cabin because I had the doors and windows open to let in cold air to keep the Alde running.  Also, the two temperature probes are located away from any direct Alde heat source.

DougH

@Tabaz or other T@B 320 underside surgeons ; A question about initial disassembly.

I was hoping to only add heat tape and heating pads to the black and gray tanks and drain tubes, but not create new boxes under the camper, and not extend the Alde as the heat source.

I was optimisticallly thinking maybe I could just adhere the heating pads directly to the plastic tanks, cover with fiberglass insulation pads, then close up the coroplast. And also wrap heat tape and insulation on the black and grey drain tubes just to keep stuff in there warmer. I'd continue to use the -50F pink stuff down the drains in the winter, and NOT use the fresh tank in the winter (though I'd slap a heating pad on it just to reduce need to winterize on the odd 31F night while camped in the fall). 

My overall goal was not to create a four season camper; only to reduce the chance that a mix of pink stuff and water in the tanks would freeze at 15F or even -5F when camping. 

I took the coroplast off first to try and match what I saw against all the pics in this thread.

But the little 6 gal black tank wasn't under the coroplast, at least on my T@B S Max.  It's just suspended in front of the driver side wheel and goes forward to the front of the camper.  I think it's covered in some thin plastic fabric layer and maybe a layer of Azdel (no idea) under that, maybe as protection for that tank against rocks or road debris that bounces up. 



Did you just cut away the fabric under the black tank with a razor? Then stick a heating pad on the tank itself?  I have several smaller ones that would fit near where the black tank drain comes down and in front of the large metal flange that sits a foot back from there.  Or has everyone thus far left that plastic fabric cover intact, put an Alde or heat source in that area, and created a whole new box to enclose the bottom of the drain and black tank?  Or even with convectors or new pex or Alde rubber heat tubes in the area behind the black tank drain, did you remove all the material covering the bare black tank to allow better heat transfer into the tank? What was involved? 

Tabaz

Doug - the black tank is actually located above the floor, in the cabin, directly under the toilet  No need for any cutting or extra warmth (IMHO).  If you simply wrapped the 90* elbow coming out of the floor with heat tape up to the drain valve, you should be good to go.  Yellow arrow is pointing to the front of the black tank.

I simply open the cabinet door under the sink to allow warm cabin air into the black tank enclosure.  Don't forget about the fresh water tank drain valve that sticks out below the frame member near the stair.

Tabaz

Doug - if you do want to add heat tape to the black tank, just plug it into the outlet under the sink that powers the refrigerator and slide the tape into cut-out in the cabinet wall where the grey tank vent comes out of the floor.  You should be able to see the black tank through the opening.

DougH

@Tabaz ; Thank you!  That all makes sense.

FWIW I'm trying 12V self regulating heat trace cable (7.5-15W per meter) and 12V 15-20W heating pads.  I've got plenty of solar / battery, and admittedly a low power / only partial solution for this first experiment.

Tabaz

Doug - does that mean you can those heating pads and tape while boondocking? If so, I’m very impressed!

jgram2

Seems to me there are DIYers on here who could make their own like this https://sciencing.com/homemade-heat-tape-8063388.html

DougH

@Tabaz ;  No idea yet. I can always scale back by disabling just the fresh water tank pad etc if I end up in cloudy conditions with only 1kWh days.  I'm running separate hot lines for each element back to the switches / fuses near the controller / battery bank.  I'm not optimistic, but I'd rather start with a small instrumented test to find weak points before taking on something as advanced as the Alde extension installations.  I'm impressed, well more awe-struck, but don't feel skilled enough to take on that level of project.

Most places I camp aren't that high altitude, and normally don't go sub-zero too often.  But I've yet to figure out whether 50W, 100W, 150W or 200W are needed to not freeze when 15F outside. Or if it's more efficient to cycle or stick with a lower power steady state.

Besides, what else am I supposed to do while waiting for the deep snow in the Rockies?   

Tabaz

I was concerned that the thermostat on the heating pads didn’t turn them off until 64*. My lay understanding of electrical matters indicated a huge waste of battery power warming the tanks far above freezing levels. I may have missed the cycling intervals of that set temperature (i.e. less wattage used).  Please report back with your results.  The heating pads and tape would be a MUCH simpler solution than the Alde alternative.

Tabaz

Doug - where did your driver’s side front stabilizer go?! The photo you provided above doesn’t show it.

DougH

Somewhere in the Northwest.  I didn't find the fronts necessary and shipped them to another T@B forum member.

A 55-65F thermostat on a RV tank heating pad is usually necessary to keep fluids a couple feet away inside the tank above 32F.  Would be nice if somebody made RV pads with a remote temperature probe (just like on most solar controllers have for battery temperature).  That way folks could attach the temperature probe to the top of the tank and the pad to the bottom...  then just keep the top of the tank above 40F.  Guess someone here should file the patent, someone else find some VC funding to start production. We'll make zillions!

[Edit 5 minutes later]  Except air is a bad conductor and this would only work on a full tank, unless you could get the probe inside the tank, or use another means of estimating tank contents temperature. Forget about the zillions. Sorry. 

dCliffhanger

DougH said:

Somewhere in the Northwest.  I didn't find the fronts necessary and shipped them to another T@B forum member.

A 55-65F thermostat on a RV tank heating pad is usually necessary to keep fluids a couple feet away inside the tank above 32F.  Would be nice if somebody made RV pads with a remote temperature probe (just like on most solar controllers have for battery temperature).  That way folks could attach the temperature probe to the top of the tank and the pad to the bottom...  then just keep the top of the tank above 40F.  Guess someone here should file the patent, someone else find some VC funding to start production. We'll make zillions!

[Edit 5 minutes later]  Except air is a bad conductor and this would only work on a full tank, unless you could get the probe inside the tank, or use another means of estimating tank contents temperature. Forget about the zillions. Sorry. 

I would think (theorize) that heat pads on the bottom would create convection currents within the tank that would, at least to some degree, promote fairly even liquid temps within the tank. I too think that such a high cut-off temp is very wasteful. Just one pad using 5 amps of current during an 8 hour night could use nearly half of a 100 amp hour battery capacity. That's what shifted my interest from electric pads to the idea of diverting part of the Alde's much more efficient LP based heat for the basement. Though, that is demonstrably more difficult to accomplish, it won't leave my batteries dead in the morning and supports my off grid objectives.

DougH

@dCliffhanger @Tabaz ;  In agreement so far.

I'm trying to build a low power, low CO2 variant.  And failing miserably.  I just hooked up and tested the power and thermostats of the small $18 pads I picked up cheap off Amazon.  Yikes!  7-8A or 100W each. Just pressed against a 45F floor, and they all properly shut down via thermostat after 1 minute, and didn't reset for 5-6 minutes.  Would expect longer heat times and smaller reset times if 15F.  Can test in the Dometic freezer I guess.  But the cutoff temperature was way above 65F, so I'm suspecting these might be 3D printer heat panels re-advertised as RV holding tank panels.      1-1.5 ohm unconnected. Might try a 100W 2-3 ohm resistor to see how they behave, before finding other panels.

I run a 650W air conditioner boondocked for hours at a time in the summer, but was shooting for a lower wattage somewhat configurable 50-150W heating solution.

I'll keep playing.

db_cooper

Tabaz said:

Doug - where did your driver’s side front stabilizer go?! The photo you provided above doesn’t show it.

They're on the front of our T@b after I janked them up trying to unhook on a really un-level spot.  Another instance of forum member helping forum member.  They are in the northwest, but I can't divulge my hiding spot...

dragonsdofly

@db_cooper, wise move. I know they're still looking.

dCliffhanger

db_cooper said:

Tabaz said:

Doug - where did your driver’s side front stabilizer go?! The photo you provided above doesn’t show it.

They're on the front of our T@b after I janked them up trying to unhook on a really un-level spot. 

You raised an issue I just experienced myself unhooking my TV. Just arrived home in the dark and it took me ~half an hour of "janking" around to get my tow ball to drop out of the hitch. I've experienced this several times. My T@B parking spot is quite unlevel, maybe 4" slope from side to side.  I am starting to suspect this is the problem. But the TV is also on the same plane.  I've had the interlock off yet when the hitch finally released, with the aide of a claw hammer, the ball\car dropped nearly 8 inches below the cranked up hitch. Very maddening and would appreciate any insights into avoiding in the future. I frequently find myself on unlevel ground that I don't always have need to level the camper for. Or do I?

Verna

@dCliffhanger, yes, if your T@B and your tow vehicle are on different “planes” it is next to impossible to disconnect the tongue from the ball. If your driveway is that un-level, try using wood or Legos to either raise the T@B or the rear of the tow vehicle. Plus use plenty of lubrication on the ball and hitch. 

It took me 5 hours to disconnect the next day after I brought my 400 home. I finally took an 8’ 2x4 and figured out if I moved the T@B 12” from the driveway edge, the truck and the 400 were in the same “plane” with each other. Patience is truly a virtue when unhitching. 

dCliffhanger

Thanks @Verna. I back my T@B off my driveway out onto a pair of 2x12's. I had thought they were in the same plane but apparently back at the wheels they drop off more. I just added a "stair" riser onto the 2x12 to raise my lower tire almost to level. I'm sorry you had to fight this for 5 hours!  I do have a gash in my thumb from my 30 minutes. Clearly this could also happen at a campsite. Good to be aware of that the hitch has to come off the ball straight up.... or it won't.

Verna

@dCliffhanger, I knew from reading all of the posts from when nüCamp started using this particular hitch. That’s why I was so patient. 

I’ve also found that when hitching up if the lever won’t go down because of the different planes, gently move your tow vehicle forward an inch and you will hear the hitch and lever fall into place. It scared my brother when he saw me calmly do this, but then I explained it and he understood. 

dCliffhanger

@Verna I've never had problems unhitching boats and utility trailers before this one. I know to do "a jiggle" with the car to either settle the hitch on or to free it. But, I've never had one that simply refused to come off. And yes, the lever lock is rather irritating as it won't stay up on it's own when hitching or it won't release it's grip when "trying" to unhitch. Glad to hear it's not just me.

Verna

@dCliffhanger it does get easier. I use a lithium spray, and I make sure to lubricate not only the ball, but the underside of the hitch and the lever, too. I does make it easier. 

If you search on Lithium, you’ll find a photo and of what I use on a post from me in 2018. 

Tabaz

Would an articulating hitch solve the problem of uneven surfaces?