Good idea? Lithium Battery in T@B 320s front storage tub (or similar)

Merry

All, we're on the verge of ordering a T@B 320s Boondock Edge.  To channel my excitement, I've been been researching the battery and electrical system.  We are considering a lithium battery (BattleBorn).  For those of you who have lithium batteries, I'd appreciate your input about location.  I plan to put it in the front tub.  Is there any reason (other than risk of theft) we shouldn't do that?  I'm a little concerned about the temperature exposure.  I know that the BattleBorns are designed to compensate for highs and lows for charging and discharging.  If your battery is outside in the tub (or a similar container), have you had any issues with high or low temperatures affecting it because it's stored out there, as opposed to inside the cabin?  To facilitate charge/discharge, BattleBorn suggests using a battery warming pad or insulated battery box in colder temps.  We are in the Pacific Northwest.  We anticipate camping in the shoulder seasons, so there is a real concern about near freezing temps overnight.  I also worry about the 100 degree summer temps we see in the high desert here.  Given the cost, we wanted to get some real life input before we decide.   Thoughts?  

dragonsdofly

@Merry, welcome to the forum. Can't speak to your questions, but I'm sure someone with experience or information will chime in.

ScottG

@Merry, how long do you plan to camp at a stretch, and what do you anticipate your power needs will be? What's your experience with deep-cycle batteries? What do see as the advantage to upgrading to the BattleBorn?

DougH

@Merry ; We haven't switched over to Lithium yet but I understand the appeal... half the weight, deeper discharge (70 vs 50), maybe more charge cycles.  We don't have personal experience (I think only a few folks on the forum have switched to Battle Born and replaced WFCO) but we have lots of YouTube hours watching LiFePO4 users (Will Prowse, et.al.) if that counts.  

Because of the temperature sensitivity, most folks seem to put the bank inside.  Some disconnect bank completely in the winter, but if you're tempted to put the battery(s) in a vented case anyway for safety, then controlling the temperature in that case seems very plausible by just turning on a muffin fan once the Alde has the cabin up to 50F, and making sure you have paranoid switches to disconnect bank from everything until you're sure internal temperature of bank has stabilized at that temperature (above and beyond the built in low temperature cutoff).

There are some LiFePO4 manufacturers with built in heaters now ($$$); not sure if Battle Born has done that yet.

Cbusguy

lead acid suffer the same issues as lithium as temperature extremes are tough on them.   The issue with lithium is one opps can be fatal to the battery.   

The good thing is Battleborn has a 10 year warranty if deemed a manufacturing defect after that $150 per hour to repair it and it's internal Battery management system

here is a link with some more info.  from a third party


 Interesting how Battleborn does not publish any info about temperature beyond the BMS, battery management system,  will take care of it.   the third party website says charging is cut off below 25 degrees. 

If your worried about temp,  just relocate it inside the trailer,  out gassing is not an issue with lithium and battleborn appear to be safer than most.   I would put them on the passenger side in the locker. 

I am waiting to see if in about 5 years we see if a large number of people complaining about battleborn not honoring their warranty on social media. 

I love the concept and the initial success,   for me the jury is still out.     

klenger

Check the link in my signature for wiring diagrams (modified) and front storage and then come back with any further questions.  I've only had my setup for 2 months and the winter weather in AZ is pretty mild.  Have not had any really hot weather yet.  

mreric

I would love to upgrade to lithium some day,    but i still find them really expensive for what they give over a deep cycle battery.     do you find that a deep cycle is not enough?      i use a deep cycle with a solar panel.  the 2 together still cheaper then a lithium.   it been more the enough to keep up with the 12v fridge,  fan and water pump.   during the day i am out and about and not using electricity.  the solar panel keeps it well charge

N7SHG_Ham

The BattleBorn temp sensitivity isn't unique to the brand, BUT the Lifepo4 chemistry. They can't be charged below freezing, but can be used below freezing. In the 400's the battery is under the bed so at least some protection from outside temperature. In the tub on the 320's, if camping in below freezing you will not be able to charge, the built in BMS won't allow it.

I plan on upgrading my brand new 400 to Lifepo4 as soon as I have funds, about a $2000 pair of batteries! They do almost everything better except cost less. Faster charging, deeper discharging, lighter weight, more cycles, etc. Cost per usable ah is comparable to other chemistries, maybe slightly less, just have to front 10 years worth of battery purchases up front one time. Did I mention zero maintenance and no Peukert effect?

ScottG

Um, @N7SHG_Ham, this is family friendly forum, so I don't think you can say "Peukert effect" here...  :-)

Actually what the heck is a Puekert effect?  :-/

N7SHG_Ham

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peukert%27s_law

Manufacturers specify the capacity of a battery at a specified discharge rate. For example, a battery might be rated at 100ah when discharged at a rate that will fully discharge the battery in 20 hours (at 5 amperes for this example). If discharged at a faster rate the delivered capacity is less. You will see this as C/20 often, meaning capacity divided by 20 hours. If you up the discharge to 10a, it won't last 1/2 the hours. Peukert is the fellow who figured that out. This is why heavy loads on battery with lead acid don't last anywhere near the rated C/20 rating because you are using energy at a way faster rate.

LiFePo4 can be discharged at maximum rated capacity with no ill effect, still lasts the full AH rating. In addition, the usable is 80-100% of rated depending on marketing literature, but in any case substantially more usable energy can be removed from same size of battery (deeper discharge). Say for instance on a Tab 400 you replace that big 225 Ah AGM battery (or pair in newer ones) with a pair of 100ah BattleBorn's, you will have almost twice the usable energy in same physical space and cut the weight substantially in the process. In addition partial charges are OK, in fact I believe recommendation is long term storage partial charged, or at least it won't hurt them.

Can't charge below freezing (BMS won't let you) and cost a lot up front are the downsides (but actually cost/usable ah is estimated to be similar to a cheap lead acid battery), lots of upsides. There are now some RV's coming from the factory with LiFePo4 standard or as an option.

For optimum performance, the charger should be changed too, but the WFCO will be marginally acceptable at least until you can upgrade the WFCO to a better charger.

Cbusguy

@N7SHG_Ham we could argue the cost less part,    As the total cost of ownership compared to agm per cycle is very similar or less.    will prowess on you tube did a cost comparison

No one can argue the brutal up front cost.

N7SHG_Ham

@Cbusguy the cost per usable ah over life of batteries may be less, not by a lot I grant you, even if it is the same as AGM, if you can upfront the initial cost the positives are worth it. Most folks don't look 10 years down the road or sell the RV before then, so may not be for all, but if you are in it for long haul I would say worth it.

I plan on a LOT of Boondocking in my new 400 and will be working from the unit some, so reliable battery to run an off grid camp is important. One thing too is running short stints on the generator won't hurt the LiFePo4 like lead AND the rate you can charge the battery is substantially increased (decreased charging time), may not need to run the generator as many hours?

If you are mostly a camper at improved campgrounds with hookups, then I probably wouldn't upgrade.

Cbusguy

@N7SHG_Ham absolutely agree,   the batterys are more expensive than simply buying a generator.

dsfdogs

@N7SHG_Ham I emailed Progressive Dynamics to ask about a replacement for our WFCO and they don't have one (for lithium). I was told "Sorry we do not have a replacement converter section  for your WFCO 8735, but a  PD9130V (30-AMPS)unit could be used as a lithium battery charger by connecting it directly to your new Lithium Battery." - available from Battle Born, and then no worries about impacting the WFCO. It would need to be mounted in the tub somehow. Instead, I bought a Noco 7200 that allows me to select the battery type. It's not very fast, but I could use it for a BB or 100 ah flooded from my Yeti 1000 or pedestal in camp to fully charge the battery. 

My notes indicate the BB will stop charging at 24 degrees, but lucky you to have an inside storage for it!

N7SHG_Ham

@dsfdogs yeah, I don't see one of the Lithium replacements for the WFCO 8735, they do have a PD4135 Inteli-Power Panel that is the WFCO 8735 direct replacement which isn't Lithium rated, BUT likely a far better converter. I wonder how difficult it would be to replace with a PD4635 lithium replacement?

When I get around to doing this, it is going to be a bit more invasive The WFCO converter will be relegated to ONLY branch circuit distribution (or take it totally out and replace with a WFCO WF-8930 panel only-will require enlarging opening). I will add a Victron MultiPlus 2000w Inverter Charger to handle the charging duties as well as inverter duties and transfer switch.

I realize my approach is a bit beyond just a swap, but will be a solid setup for extended off grid use.

 

dsfdogs

@N7SHG_Ham at this point, I'm beyond my skillset! I had asked this guy (Dave) about the PD4000L series as a replacement, but he replied: "Another problem I see is the fact that your present unit is set up for 35 A there for the wiring in your coach is only set up for 35 Amps in the smallest 4000 Series we have is 45 it could cause wiring problems." I don't know enough about this, but did wonder about the 35 vs 45 amp difference in converters. Anyway, that's when he suggested the separate charger. I also don't think WFCO has a lithium charger yet, but have not contacted them.

CampHub

A few of us have been discussing this on the T@G forum.  https://teardrop-trailers.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/581/upconverting-to-group-31-lithium-battery

dsfdogs

@CampHub Thank you SO MUCH!! This discussion showed me I could get the GC2 sized Battle Born (it's a 12v in the shape of a 6 volt) and the GC2 battery box footprint will fit in the group 24 sized battery tray! If the lid doesn't quite fit, I'll cut off the tabs. I wish the GC2 size weren't $100 more than the group 27, but I would have to spend more than that to have someone fabricate a new tray to fit a group 27 battery anyway! Oh my gosh...this is the solution I've been searching for...am I missing anything?

As a ps. to that other discussion, I believe the standard BB battery is actually a group 27 size, not a group 31. (12.75x6.875x9)

And someone also said the SeeLevel doesn't work with a lithium. It does, but the Puekert effect is different. I found the below volt to % full chart and Battleborn concurred it's correct. There is a large % drop between 13.2 and 13.1V:
13.6V = 100%
13.4V = 99%
13.3V = 90%
13.2V = 70%
13.1V = 40%
13.0V = 30%
12.9V = 20%
12.8V = 17%
12.5V = 14%
12.0V = 9%

Lastly, the WFCO only kicks into the 14.4 bulk mode when the voltage is less than 12.2, which is 50% on a lead acid battery, but approximately 10% on a lithium? I hope I don't draw it down that low. So I think that means the converter is in absorption mode at 13.6 most of the time, or float at 13.2, thus the slower charging of the lithium battery. Per BB, this is "ok" as their battery wants 14.4 bulk/absorption or 13.6v or less float, but doesn't take advantage of the fast charge benefit of a lithium battery. Solar or another battery charger like the Noco or a Progressive Dynamics seem to be the answer, similar to AGM batteries. 

One question, when connected with 7 pin, could the TV draw down the lithium battery as it has a higher volt reading?

Please correct me if I'm wrong! Thanks again CampHub!

1968Healey

I am also looking to add BattleBorn batteries to my (soon to be delivered) Tab 400.  BattleBorn actually has a chart for charger compatibility and does state that the WFCO charger works, but only up to ~80% charge.  My long term plan is to replace the WFCO charger with a Victron Multi Inverter/Charger (2000W model) to get around the WFCO limitations.

In the meantime, anybody with the Victron Solar charger should get a full charge from the Victron on top of the initial charge from the WFCO.

Merry

Thanks, everyone.  This and other threads here have been incredibly helpful.

The primary reason we're considering the lithium is the efficiency, the reduced maintenance, and the reduced weight.  We mostly boondock and aren't heavy users.  We spend most days out and about.  Since we're starting with a new trailer, I thought this would be an opportunity to spend a bit more money up front (by the time you buy a couple of AGM batteries) to gain all the great benefits of LiFePO4.  We're leaning heavily towards combining it with the factory solar.  Assuming it's all in good order, my hope is that we'll have a nice little system that will tide us over for the 3-7 days that we spend out at a time.   

@klenger your wiring schematics are amazing.  I look forward to hearing how the LiFePO4 work out for you down in AZ and have saved the schematics for future reference.  It looks like you've got decent security with the sweet storage box for all the front items.  Something like that would make me feel better about keeping the battery up front.  

@DougH Yes, I have watched Will Prowse!  His enthusiasm is great. Plus he talks about it in such a way as to make it all sound so simple.  Putting the LiFePO4 in the trailer does sound like a good approach for our circumstances.  But that may be a tall order.  In the 2020 T@B 320s, the AC is located under the rear bench (left of the Alde).  There's not a lot of real estate left under the seats! 

I think I need to sleep on the issue.  Perhaps the answer will come to me in a dream.  If we don't do lithium, I think it's going to be the AGM, but I don't relish having to lift those beasts. 

Merry

@1968Healey Could you share the link for the chart you're referring to?  I can't seem to find it.  I found this, which is helpful, but more general.  https://battlebornbatteries.com/charger-compatibility-table/

@dsfdogs You asked:  "One question, when connected with 7 pin, could the TV draw down the lithium battery as it has a higher volt reading?" I think this issue was addressed by @klenger in a thread about his rewiring project, so you might try checking that for reference.   

WilliamA

Merry said:

@1968Healey Could you share the link for the chart you're referring to?  I can't seem to find it.  I found this, which is helpful, but more general.  https://battlebornbatteries.com/charger-compatibility-table/

@dsfdogs You asked:  "One question, when connected with 7 pin, could the TV draw down the lithium battery as it has a higher volt reading?" I think this issue was addressed by @klenger in a thread about his rewiring project, so you might try checking that for reference.   

The short answer to the battery balance (TV>Trailer and vice-versa) is yes, it will draw down.  Whichever battery has less voltage will eventually absorb the difference from the other until both voltages are equal.  I don't have any experience with Li batteries in RV's but a battery is a battery and will behave like one.  I disconnect my umbilical when I'm stopped for more than a couple of hours just to keep the trailer from drawing down the TV, but a much better and simple solution would be to put in a 30A relay that simply shuts off the charge line when the TV isn't running.  There are a lot of places that could be tapped into such as the ignition circuit, but splicing into modern vehicle circuits is a dicey business nowadays.  The easiest and safest place to tap into an ignition-off circuit would possibly be for the utility-plug, formerly called the cigarette lighter.  If your utility plug is like mine and shuts off when you turn the TV off, you could simply tap into that hot line to run your relay.  Then when you turn the car off, it would shut off the charging line to the trailer and disconnect the two.  
I just grabbed a link to a (very) common automotive relay as an example.  Here's one here:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bch-0332209150?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-bosch-automotive&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6PuUtNep4QIV7h-tBh21wgD0EAQYAiABEgKTOfD_BwE

Here's a typical 30A relay wiring installation.  
I've greatly increased the scale of the relay in order to show its internals.
The relay is quite simple in design and function.  It's basically just a switch.  The red coil shown is an electromagnet.  There is a ferrous metal core connected to a non-conducting arm that opens and closes the switch.  When you run current through the coil, it pulls the iron core in, energizing the switch.  When power is interrupted, the coil relaxes and opens (turns off) the switch.  They commonly cost between $5-10 bucks and last thousands of cycles.  Your TV is full of them in various configurations.

Wired in this way, the charging line will power the trailer battery when the vehicle is running, but will interrupt the circuit when you shut the engine off.  It looks a lot more complex than it is.  If you aren't comfortable doing it, you can have the mechanic at your trailer joint do it for you.  If they can't, get a different mechanic...

WilliamA

ScottG

@Merry, you originally suggested cost was a factor, and wanted some "real-life" input, so that's why I started by asking the questions I did.

We camp much like you: 4-8 days at time, usually without hookups, low power usage, and most of our daylight hours spent away from camp.

After cluelessly killing my first battery, I replaced it with a 105aH group 27 standard wet cell. The new battery cost $90, lives happily out of the way in the front tub, charges adequately with the existing converter, and only gets moved when I take it inside for the winter. I'm about to start my fourth season with it and it is still in very good condition.

If you're a physicist and tinkerer with deep pockets, then by all means dive right in and have a blast--we are all motivated by different pursuits and interests and that's what makes this forum great. However, if you just want an adequate system to camp comfortably for a few days, you probably don't need to drop over a grand on a fancy battery and associated modifications, at least not right out of the gate. Once you use your T@B a bit you will have a much better sense of what you really need or want.

Just my $0.02. Tecchie-geeks feel free to light me up (politely) if you think I'm all wet. Just maybe you'll end up selling me on one of those BattleBorns after all!  :-)

klenger

A couple of additional comments:

In my experience with the BB lithium  battery charged by a Progressive lithium spec converter and lithium solar, the battery voltage is most always higher than the highest charge voltage from my Jeep Wrangler, so I put a fuse inline with the charge wire and have left it out so far.  Traveling about 1-1/2 hours yesterday with the frig on DC, no charge from the tow vehicle, and the solar running, I was down 10 AH when I got the the campground.  I plugged into 30 amp power and the BB battery was fully charged in about 30 min.  I would have had the same results with the tow vehicle connected since it never puts out more voltage than the BB battery anyway.

Regarding connecting a relay inline with the charge wire, on my 2019 Jeep Wrangler, with the factory tow package, a set of 4 AUX switches are included that can be configured many ways.  One of them is on a 40 A fuse and can be configured to provide 12 VDC power when the ignition is on.  It would be doable to disconnect the existing charge wire from the 7-pin tow connector and connect this AUX line directly to it with no additional relays.  The reason I did not do this is because the tow vehicle is never high enough to help anyway, but this method would work well for someone using conventional lead acid or AGM batteries.  For more info on the Jeep AUX switches, check your owner's manual.  I don't know if these switches are specific to the Wrangler or if the Cherokee and/or Grand Cherokee has them also.

While the 12 VDC charge system in my Jeep seems like it should work with the BB lithium battery, I consider them to be two different electrical system specs that are not compatible, and just don't tie the two together.  Even on a good day with a conventional battery, charging the trailer battery from the tow vehicle is mostly ineffective.  

In the end, I am extremely pleased with the performance of the BB battery with the limited use I have had so far.  Regardless of the type of battery, solar, or converter that you use, consider getting a good battery monitor system.  For less than $200, you will always now the exact condition of your trailer battery in AH and % of charge.  I use the Bogart Trimetric system and am very pleased with it.  Details in the wiring diagrams at the link in my signature. 

Merry

@ScottG Cost is still a factor for sure.  Thanks for your real life usage info.  Sounds like you and others are doing happily with standard wet cell or AGM and that is heartening to hear.  How did you "cluelessly kill" your first battery?  Any wisdom about how we can avoid doing the same?  Do you also have a solar panel to supplement?  

ScottG

@Merry, my T@B was step up from a tent. When I bought it battery cutoffs and monitors were not standard, nor did I have clue you couldn't run your battery down to 10V or use it for four days without any recharge. Between phantom drain while parked and overuse when in camp, the battery got repeatedly deep cycled and bit the dust completely at the end of the season.

Experience is the best teacher. The next season I installed the slightly bigger group 27 battery, put in a cut-off switch, bought a cheap plug-in voltage monitor, and added a 100W solar suitcase. Total investment was less then $400 and a little sweat equity. I don't do anything particularly fancy--I keep the battery topped up and disconnected when not in use, keep it above 12.2V when in use, and keep my solar panel out full time when in camp, sometimes moving it here and there to chase the sun, because I tend to camp in shady sights.

Again, some find the high tech bling really gets their propellers going. Others may have unusual circumstances that require the very best equipment. There's nothing wrong with that and if that's you you should certainly follow your own path. While I absolutely enjoy the creature comforts of my T@B, I prefer to achieve those comforts as simply as possible. I guess I still think of it as camping.  ;-) 

 

pthomas745

@Merry I had the same basic experience as Scott when I first started bring an extra battery to charge a laptop/camera while tent camping.  They were small batteries, but I chewed through a couple of them in two years, not realizing their limits.  I goofed around with basic solar kits from Amazon, and made it work, but it was the battery measuring and monitoring that I had no idea about.

When I bought my trailer, I started into learning how to measure my state of charge, and learning how much electricity I was using every time I flipped a switch in the trailer.  My measuring methods went from the Seelevel in the trailer, to a multimeter, and now I have the Victron monitor.  I have the same stock battery that came with the trailer after 2 1/2 years, and with the solar panel I have comfortably boondocked for 5-7 days. 

I always give credit to this Jkjenns page for jumpstarting my battery monitoring.  This helped me so much when bought the trailer.  Saved a few batteries, too!

https://jenngrover.com/2015/11/guilty-as-charged-rv-battery-use-management/

jkjenn

Storing the batteries inside of the T@b will only make a difference if you plan to heat the T@b in cold weather (assuming you are not FT.) I think it makes more sense to make ensure your setup allows for removal when not in use in cold weather, if you have a substantial cold weather season.

dsfdogs

My new BattleBorn is installed! It's in the front plastic tub. The regular BB is a group 27 size which would have meant modifications to the battery tray which I am not equipped to do myself. The GC2 size has the same group 24 footprint as the tray from NuCamp, but is 12V, 100ah just like the the other battery! So width and length are the same, but it is taller: 10.32 x 6.86 x 11  (L x W xH). I bought a Noco 6 volt sized snaptop battery box.

I watched YouTube to learn how to disconnect and reconnect a battery.

I only had 7 1/2" between the gas connection and battery shut off knob. The battery box was rubbing on the side of the gas connection, which I didn't like. I don't have scrap anything lying around the house, but came up with a paint stir stick and some rubber bumpers to create a lift. (I'll figure out something better later).



Battery is in and connected. There is a gap to allow space for the lid at the gas connection.
I bought the $7 strap for the battery and thankful I did as getting it in and out would be near impossible. The strap is tucked away.
The battery comes with bolts, nuts and washers for the posts. You will need two wrenches to tighten down the nut. It must be tight. I could get the positive side done but needed a neighbor to hold up the battery so I could get the negative side done. It's just too tight to work in the battery box and side of tub. Luckily the battery is only 31 pounds so not hard to hold it up.


The lid required modification to fit around the battery switch. I used a hand saw and blunt nosed wire cutters and a file (the best I had to do the job). It was a lot of trial and error, aka fussing.



As others have noted, it still requires a certain sequence to turn and drop in the box/battery/lid then straighten to get it all to work. Scratches on hands and arms are to be expected.

I used the original strap because I like the clasp vs what they provide now with the boxes.


I used a multi-meter to test the battery. It was 13.2v which is 70%. I then allowed the WFCO converter in the trailer to charge over night and by morning, the battery was 100% at 13.6v (yes, disconnected and rested). I got the battery back down to 70% using the lights and new MaxxAir fan, then used my new Noco 7200 charger on lithium setting. It was at 100% within two hours.

@Merry I'm heading out in two weeks to camp in Sisters for my first outing this year. I really don't enjoy camping in mid 20 degrees, but it could get that cold. While I will have full hook ups, I'll be testing the battery too. I learned from Bend Battery, a distributor of BattleBorn, their new batteries will accept charges down to 22 degrees. One option to help insulate is to squeeze some Reflectix along the sides of the battery box.

Happy Camping! I look forward to the East meets West rally!

Cbusguy

@dsfdogs not sure where that fellow got his info,   the BB website says 24 degrees for charging and -4 F for discharging.   Just a thing to remember,   that charging and discharging in the extremes of the batterys temperature ranges significantly impacts their longevity.   

Still waiting to see how BB handles warranty issues,   the jury is still out,  we will hear pretty quick one the install base gets larger.   

Have fun on your trip.   

NomadPilgrim

Where will all these lithium batteries go when they die?