A Modified Hybrid Winterizing Method (+pump, toilet & shower)

BrianZ

My purpose here is to show a couple of new methods that I think will enhance the typical winterization process to address some problem areas, but without filling the main plumbing system with antifreeze.

For the last two years we have been successfully using the "blowout" method of winterizing our T@B plumbing, combined with the commonly recommended addition of small amounts of RV antifreeze to the sink & shower drains, toilet bowl, and waste tank valves.  (Since we use compressed air plus limited amounts of antifreeze, but neither exclusively, I am referring to this as a "hybrid" method.) To this conventional hybrid method, I had also added my own previously described method of using a pair of short hoses to flush antifreeze through the pump as well..

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/6064/winterizing-issue/p1

(Note the above link also shows it was @ScottG's idea to run antifreeze through just the pump - I only added dedicated hoses for this purpose to keep it out of the normal water lines.)

More recently, I've been reading about some unfortunate cases of damaged toilet valves and outdoor shower mixing valves that required replacement due to freezing..

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/5145/water-valve-replacement-for-toilet

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/6810/outdoor-shower

So, I now plan to include those two valves in my modified hybrid method for winterizing with limited amounts of antifreeze that targets these potential problem areas.  Note that this can be accomplished without exposing the common plumbing lines or water tank to antifreeze, by using small amounts delivered directly to the target valves in a manner similar to how @ScottG showed us was possible for the pump,  as further explained below.

Perhaps the most significant change will be to [temporarily] connect my existing DIY pump output flush hose directly to the toilet water hose (💡!), like this..

The pump will then suck up antifreeze from an intake hose in a jug and deliver it to the toilet while winterizing the pump itself.  Previously, the output hose emptied the pump antifreeze into a waste container which I then recycled to winterize drains.  Now, it can recycle itself by moving antifreeze directly from pump into the toilet valve, then toilet bowl and black tank valve.  I would follow that by pumping some air to clear the hose, then leave hoses connected for flushing in the spring.

Here's how I modified my pump hose with a couple of adapters from Lowes for connecting to the toilet hose..

The key to making this connection was finding the right connector with ⅜" male compression fitting threads at one end to fit the ⅜" female connector on the toilet hose (compression fitting & nut are not needed, just the threaded elbow)..

(Thanks to "Mike" at our local Lowes, who I praised in a customer survey for his great effort to find it.  The L-shape was his idea & makes it easier to connect.) The toilet hose normally connects to the new toilet shutoff valve I added recently..

If you haven't added a toilet shutoff valve, you should. 

I also plan to add hose clamps at both ends of the pump hose to help prevent them from popping off from the connector fitting when under increased pressure. Previously, the pump output hose was not in a closed system like this will be; but with pump & toilet hoses connected, pressure can build if the toilet flush valve is not held open while the pump is running.

I believe the above method will address the problem with water getting trapped in the toilet valve, described previously with these pictures..

(https://tabforum.nucamprv.com/#/discussion/9097/toilet-intake-hose-broken)

When I installed the stainless toilet hose above, I saved the old toilet hose, which I cut into 3 parts for making the adapter hose below for flushing out the outdoor shower mixing valve & shower head..

UPDATE: This funnel failed to work by gravity, but I added a tube to it to make it work.  Details below.

My plan is was to use the 2" bushing as a funnel for adding antifreeze, provided that gravity will give me enough assistance to fill the lines, but I expect it should work it didn't.  Update added below.

Adding air pressure will likely work best to push the antifreeze through the lines.  The rubber tip on this air compressor trigger control fits perfectly inside the 1/2" fitting, so should do the trick.  I picked up the 1/2" adapter shown at inset from Home Depot for attaching a garden hose for springtime flushing.  I have added 4 hose clamps here to secure the connections while under pressure.  

I'll likely winterize this shower valve first, so I can drain & recover most of the antifreeze for use in the pump/toilet; then leave these hoses connected until spring, with the cap shown above replacing the funnel piece.

So, this will be my "new & improved" version of my "Modified Hybrid Winterizing Method" for use next winter.  I have not yet tested these two new methods, so we shall see how it goes in mid November. I plan on testing the connections with water first, to avoid any surprises with antifreeze in the lines.

PS:

Just an afterthought..  I can't help but wonder if I'm just lucky that I've not had any issues with frozen toilet or shower valves, or whether there's another explanation.  I'd like to think that it's because I try to be thorough in my use of compressed air, but being lucky is good too. I also can't help but think that our 30-gal/150-psi air compressor gives us an advantage with it's higher sustained flow rate (cubic ft/min or CFM) spec than most.  It's rated at 8.6 scfm @ 40psi, which is still only adequate but not ideal for our yard sprinkler system, though way more than enough for our T@B. We originally got it for blowing out our lawn sprinkler pipes, and I recall the installer advising us not to rely on a typical small home compressor (many don't even list a cfm spec), but one with a larger tank volume and higher sustained flow rate was needed to keep air moving through the lines to get all the water out.  He recommended 20 cfm.

Of course, a couple hundred feet of 1-inch pipes in a sprinkler system has a whole lot more volume to fill & to keep the air moving through  than the short, small diameter pex pipes in our T@B; but the principle still applies. I think a small 3-gal compressor (or even smaller) should do a perfectly  adequate job if it has two gauges & a regulated output (I typically use 20-30psi). But, I can't imagine anyone using a bicycle pump, for example, to [directly] blow out their T@B plumbing, because there would be no sustained air flow to move the water through the lines & out.  So, it's not about the highest pressure (psi) that a pump can achieve, but the sustained air flow while under pressure that the pump/compressor needs to maintain to effectively do the job.

Ok, sermon over; but, regardless, I'd rather take these extra steps to protect the toilet & shower valves, as it's not that difficult or time consuming in order to get that proverbial "ounce of prevention".

jkjenn

Nice write-up, Brian. I have wondered how you could really blow out the toilet line. 

Bayliss

You're a smart and crafty guy, @BrianZ.  Nice write-up.  Thanks for the photos, which always help.

BrianZ

Thanks, @jkjenn.  If you were referring to how to get antifreeze inside the toilet valve, then yes, I was wondering too, until I realized I was already connecting hoses to our pump, then the light bulb went on! 💡 If you meant blowing out with air, that's never been an issue - once our big tank of air is connected to the city water port, then just holding the toilet flush valve open for about 20-30 secs at 20-30 psi gets the job done.  I usually repeat all individual valves one by one, sink, shower, etc.  I've read that pressurized air can be more damaging to plastic parts than pressurized water (at least for lawn sprinkler systems), so a lower pressure is used for winterizing.

Thanks, @Bayliss, glad you found it helpful!

BrianZ

UPDATE:
My plan for using the 2" bushing as a funnel did not work, because the fitting that it screws onto (see my previous photo) has such a narrow inner diameter that water would not even drain into the hose without more head pressure.  So it was back to the drawing board, and here's what I came up with..

By adding a 12" scrap of 2" PVC pipe to the bushing (funnel), plus a few other parts, I made what I will call an "injection tube" to hold about 24 oz/3 cups of antifreeze.  I can now fill the tube & apply the pressure hose to it, to inject the antifreeze into the outdoor shower valve & out through the spray head (with spray head control locked open). 
This time it worked great! 

Ironically, I used an actual funnel this time to fill the tube with water for testing, then screwed in a 1/2" MIP fitting with a 1/8" FIP opening to better fit the rubber tipped air hose nozzle for injecting the liquid into the pipes.

I also tested the plumbing connections for winterizing the toilet..

The only addition here is a 5" piece of 2x4 wood block I used to hold the toilet flush lever open while I turned on the pump switch.  It probably isn't necessary, but I wanted to both avoid the higher pressure buildup in the hoses & the distraction of having to work the toilet lever while trying to watch for leaks in the hoses & controlling the pump. It worked great to extract 3 cups of water from the quart jug & pumped it through.  I did find a small leak in one of my hose fittings, which I have now fixed with an O-ring & teflon tape, so will test again without the wood block.  

In retrospect, I could have also used the pump without wood block or any liquid to test for leaks with air pressure, then add the bottle of water to test by opening the flush valve. Either way should allow control over how much antifreeze to deliver into the bowl, [by pulling the bottle of liquid away] such that some can then be used in the bowl for winterizing the bowl valve.  

BrianZ

Due to temps in the 20's last night as expected, yesterday I winterized our T@B using the above described techniques for the first time to put antifreeze in the pump, toilet & outside shower lines, leaving all the tubes connected & capped for the winter.  (Just the day after returning from our last camping trip of the year.)  It all seems to have worked very well.  I'll have to wait until springtime to confirm actual success. 😉

I did the outdoor shower lines first, by blowing 3 cups (24oz) of antifreeze in the injector tube through the lines & showerhead and into a container.  I then recycled most of that container of antifreeze through the pump & into the toilet, letting most go down into the black tank to get to the outside drain valve & left some in the toilet bowl; then poured the rest down the shower drain for the trap & gray tank valve.  Also poured some down the sink drain, though I didn't really need to with a waterless trap installed.

One thing I realized is that with the wood block holding the toilet valve open as shown in the photo above, no antifreeze is retained in the bowl, yet removing it closes the valve & prevents any getting into the bowl.  So, what I discovered is that by turning the block sideways it holds the lever open just enough to to open the line to put antifreeze into the toilet but not enough to open/flush the toilet, which is handy for leaving some in the toilet.  With the block in the right position, I can then use the pump switch to deliver the right volume into either the bowl or waste tank.. 

Now, the water pump, toilet valve, waste valves & outside shower are all protected, and I still have at least 2/3 Gal of antifreeze left.
I'm pleased with this targeted approach to protecting areas that may need antifreeze, even if it does add an extra 30 minutes to deal with the extra plumbing connections.  In the spring I'll just repeat the same flushing routine using clean water instead of antifreeze, except the extra hoses & connections will already be in place.  The two water pump lines & H/C shower lines will remain disconnected for the winter.

Just remembered I need to put tape over the city water inlet with a note to remind me not to connect any city water until inside water lines are reconnected.

Sharon_is_SAM

@BrianZ, in the spring, can’t you just rinse the pump independent of any other connections (input end submerged in a bucket of water and output end in an empty bucket)?  The outside shower can be rinsed into a bucket via a fresh water connection, no?

BrianZ

Good points, @Sharon_is_SAM: 
Yes, that's what I've done in the past for our pump, except now that I've got the pump connected directly to the toilet line, the toilet will be my bucket.  I still have a disconnected pump line that could fill the trailer with water, so have to be sure to reconnect that pump line before connecting water to the city water inlet.

I suppose I could reconnect the inside water lines to the outside shower fixture, though I'd still have to rinse out my temporary hoses, and I'm not sure if I reconnected now with some residual antifreeze still in the lines, where it might end up.  There's probably not enough to worry about, so could reconnect them now & just rinse my temp hoses separately; as it might be a lesser risk than forgetting to reconnect the shower lines & end up flooding the trailer in the spring.

Thanks.

Sharon_is_SAM

Yeah, maybe some AF would migrate back into the lines from the shower.  

BrianZ

Well, since I blew out the majority of antifreeze from the shower lines with air pressure (about 20 psi, just enough to recover most of it), there's not much left in the shower line or mixing valves.  If I leave the hot & cold shower valves closed, I doubt that any would migrate backwards, although even a few drops would end up greatly diluted during spring sanitizing & flushing.  I would still leave the valve handle in the shower head locked open to allow for possible expansion. 

I  prefer accepting this extremely minimal risk of exposure to very dilute propylene glycol over what I consider the greater risk of flooding the trailer if I should forget to reconnect shower lines in the spring.  At least I've already established a routine over 3 years now for disconnecting/reconnecting the water pump lines.  Still going to put tape over the city water port outside the trailer with a reminder to reconnect pump hose first.

After all, propylene glycol like the type used in RV antifreeze, is rated as "generally safe" & is even used in diluted amounts in some food grade products (unlike the toxic ethylene glycol used in car antifreeze).  

BrianZ

I went ahead & reconnected the hot & cold water lines to the outside shower fixture, for rinsing in the spring.  I also added 1/2" threaded plugs to the disconnected pump hoses for extra insurance against inadvertent reconnection of city water, though I still put tape over the city water port with a reminder note.
I guess as we get older we need to do a little more to help protect us from ourselves! 

Sharon_is_SAM

Preventing self-sabotage are we😉