TAB 400 Boondock 2021 Winterizing

GrandmasKid

ColoradoSun said:

All I can say is don’t forget to run the anti freeze through the toilet water line. It’s easy to forg

So, is it not sufficient to just blow enough air through the toilet flush line so that no water is in it?

TomCanada

I needed to satisfy my inner engineer a while back so I made a diagram of the plumbing system on my 2021 Tab 400.. Reposting here in case this is useful for some

Denny16

An empty (or near empty) water tank does not need antifreeze, what little water left in it can freeze and expand in the empty tank without any issue or damage.  The air tank is vented, so even a half full water tank can freeze without damage to the tank, as any expansion from the freezing water can expand into the empty part of the tank.
cheers 

GrandmasKid

One thing I'm confused about. Before we even do the first step of Drain Fresh Water Tank and before the next step of Turn Water Pump on..., How or in what mode should the Nautilus handles be set? Thanks.

TomCanada

Denny16 said:

An empty (or near empty) water tank does not need antifreeze, what little water left in it can freeze and expand in the empty tank without any issue or damage.  The air tank is vented, so even a half full water tank can freeze without damage to the tank, as any expansion from the freezing water can expand into the empty part of the tank.
cheers 

While I want to believe that - whenever I go to freeze a block of ice in an open bucket, the freezing cycle still deforms the bottom of my bucket (bulges and goes convex) rather than the ice expanding uniformly upwards to the open air.

TomCanada

GrandmasKid said:

One thing I'm confused about. Before we even do the first step of Drain Fresh Water Tank and before the next step of Turn Water Pump on..., How or in what mode should the Nautilus handles be set? Thanks.

When you're draining or pumping water out of the pipes, you can just be in dry camping mode on the Nautilus.  Before you start sucking up antifreeze from the outside, you want to switch to 'Winterize/Siphon' mode.

400newbie

thank you!

Denny16

TomCanada said:

Denny16 said:

An empty (or near empty) water tank does not need antifreeze, what little water left in it can freeze and expand in the empty tank without any issue or damage.  The air tank is vented, so even a half full water tank can freeze without damage to the tank, as any expansion from the freezing water can expand into the empty part of the tank.
cheers 

While I want to believe that - whenever I go to freeze a block of ice in an open bucket, the freezing cycle still deforms the bottom of my bucket (bulges and goes convex) rather than the ice expanding uniformly upwards to the open air.

Tom, freezing a large block of ice in a bucket or even a half bucked of watery is going to expand in each direction.  This is different from a 1-inch or less water spread out in the bottom of TaB water tank, which will go up into the empty tank, like ice cubes in a shallow tray, up into an empty space is the direction of less resistance. 

cheers

TomCanada

Denny16 said:

TomCanada said:

Denny16 said:

An empty (or near empty) water tank does not need antifreeze, what little water left in it can freeze and expand in the empty tank without any issue or damage.  The air tank is vented, so even a half full water tank can freeze without damage to the tank, as any expansion from the freezing water can expand into the empty part of the tank.
cheers 

While I want to believe that - whenever I go to freeze a block of ice in an open bucket, the freezing cycle still deforms the bottom of my bucket (bulges and goes convex) rather than the ice expanding uniformly upwards to the open air.

Tom, freezing a large block of ice in a bucket or even a half bucked of watery is going to expand in each direction.  This is different from a 1-inch or less water spread out in the bottom of TaB water tank, which will go up into the empty tank, like ice cubes in a shallow tray, up into an empty space is the direction of less resistance. 

cheers

Makes sense - I'm sure there are some more scientific calculations where the depth of the water starts to make expansion occur in other directions (rather than just up), but we seem to be quite far from that.  Then again, if you've ever looked at the ice cubes that come out of a deeper tray, the edges are somewhat convex as well (not perfectly straight), so even there there's some lateral force.  That said, yeah the little bit in the bottom of a wide holding tank shouldn't cause a problem.

Denny16

Yes I agree Tom, and it has in’s had any negative effects on our Jan 2018 build TaB, which is only drained and all valves opened up to get most of the water out of the plumbing.  The trailer has never had any RV antifreeze it is water system, that said, we do not have P traps either, that require antifreeze or blowing out.
The trailer lives in Northern California, so winter temps only get down to the low 20s, never below 0.
cheers

USSBird

Why don't we blow out the black tank flush line on the P3 Nautilus?  The manual doesn't say a peep about it.   And if you blow out the line, with the gate valve closed where would the air eventually go?  The toilet?  Would it be better to do the blow out at the dump station with black tank valve open?  What about Antifreeze to the BTF?  I would hate to have the spray out nozzle(s) crack in the black tank.  Thoughts?

Horigan

The black tank system is vented to the roof, so that's where the air would go.  The flush line is relatively short and angled down, so it drains by gravity.  No blow out required.

Denny16

The Black Tank on a TaB400 is above the camper floor, under the toilet.  The vent pipe runs up the wall next to the sink.  There is no real need to blow it out, just dump the contents as you normally do, flush it out, and let the water drain all out, before closing the valve.  If you want some protection for the outside get vale’s, add a little RV antifreeze to the toilet opening so it goes in the black tank and down to the gate valve,open the gate valve with a bucket under it until you see pink stuff drain out, close the valve and Bob’s your uncle... 

The BWF line will drain itself out, no freeze issue there.
cheers

TABNewbies

I am working through my first 2021 TAB 400 winterization with this (and other) threads to pull together a document of everything from all the comments, if only to help me next year. I looked at the black tank flush line too and I believe it self drains into the tank and the Nautilius as others say above.  
However, I am going to use it and blow it out and watch for anything from the black tank outlet which has been flushed to oblivion (pee only) and see if anything comes out.

TABNewbies

If a help to anyone reading this, write up and photos of the steps I took from the forum threads like this one and Nautilus manuals for winterization of our 2021 TAB 400. I'll be a lot quicker next year. The black flush line shown as self draining 

TomCanada

TABNewbies said:

If a help to anyone reading this, write up and photos of the steps I took from the forum threads like this one and Nautilus manuals for winterization of our 2021 TAB 400. I'll be a lot quicker next year. The black flush line shown as self draining 

Looks great!  I actually did my first winterizing today and it is a quick and easy job especially with your guide.  I didn't bother blowing out the remaining water - I let the antifreeze dilute the few drops left and feel that's good enough for me.  I also had the challenge with priming like others but found a neat way to resolve it - while the pump is running, open up the outside shower cold water and depress the coiled hose sprayer. Once I did that the pump kicked in and started sucking up the antifreeze. Your mileage may vary!

I also very briefly opened up the low point drains once the system was full of antifreeze just to get a few drops of antifreeze into those valves, otherwise my procedure was pretty much same as what you documented - thanks for doing that!

TABNewbies

Thanks @TomCanada. I added to my list to open 'warm' (half way between hot & cold) each faucet to both take off the pressure and also allows a flow through when quickly open/close the low point drains. Good catch. 

I have also realized that our Nautilus side being in the sun (even under a cover) could easily freeze / thaw many times during MA winter days so every little item counts. 

ewpreston

I have a 2021 T@B 400 just like this. I've followed all the instructions. I cannot get the antifreeze to siphon in. During the summer I was able to fill the freshwater take via siphon, but I had to pour water into the short hose to get the pump to prime. With the winterize setting I can't get the pump to prime no matter what I try. I have all the water drained, but I live in Wisconsin where it gets to -30 so I really want to add antifreeze.

rhyno

@ewpreston - have you tried the @TomCanada trick above to open the cold water on the outside shower, then turn on the sprayer to burp air out of the lines and initiate the siphoning action?

ScottG

Nothing to add here, but I did just discover @TomCanada's excellent schematic and have posted it in the resources library. 

manyman297

@TABNewbies Great write up. I stumbled on this after I had just winterized but it looks like I mostly followed what you did. 

Question...I didn't open a hot and cold water tap while doing the gravity drain on the low-point drains. Does this leave water in the Alde? How do you know if you've drained enough water out of the Alde?

ewpreston

rhyno said:

@ewpreston - have you tried the @TomCanada trick above to open the cold water on the outside shower, then turn on the sprayer to burp air out of the lines and initiate the siphoning action?

I have not. I've opened all the valves at various times. I'll try the outside shower with sprayer trick next. Supposed to get down to 24 next week, so I've got through this weekend. Thanks

Sharon_is_SAM

@manyman297 - the Alde manual specifies to use the safety/drain valve to empty the Alde water tank with faucets open to prevent a vacuum.  You can put a bucket under the drain to measure the output.  Then leave the valve open.  There is no other way to confirm that it is empty.  It is okay to leave a little water behind.

The automatic check valve should allow air into the tank so that it empties even without the taps being open.

manyman297

Thanks @Sharon_is_SAM. So by automatic check valve do you mean the yellow valves under the bed? I opened those along with my low point drains, allowed those to drain and then turned my nautilus valves to the diagonal positions and blew them out. Turned them to city fill and blew the lines out inside the trailer, then proceeded to pump antifreeze through the system with nautilus in winterize mode.

Just concerned that not opening an interior faucet didn’t allow the Alde to drain completely?

Sharon_is_SAM

I think what you did sounds fine.  The Alde should be adequately empty.  Just leave the drain valve open.

The yellow flapper valve under the bed is the safety/drain valve.
The auto check valve is C in this photo.

manyman297

@Sharon_is_SAM It's also my understanding that these two inline vents at the top of the Alde boiler and Flow system are there to help drain the system as well (the air hoses terminate under the camper). I wonder if their suggestion to open a tap just makes things drain faster? 

Sharon_is_SAM

Yes.  The in line vents are ‘C” above.  Opening the faucets will hasten emptying.

manyman297

@Sharon_is_SAM Dohhh..shoulda looked at that diagram more carefully. So it sounds like it's not entirely necessary to open a faucet to drain the tank. It just drains faster when you do it. 

I also took a minute to trace the routes of the plumbing lines to really understand what's going on in that compartment. Things make more sense when you understand a bit about how everything is plumbed. 

TABNewbies

Been away for 2 days and appreciate the dialogue.

The two yellow Alde relief valves drained the Alde system fine - I then closed them, but I agree leaving open is better unless you think some animal is going to populate your Alde (not in MA).

The open sink taps (faucets) were just to get a bit of flow through the low points.

Next year I am thinking of making sure the American passenger side wheel is elevated and just open up everything for a day to "warm" (half way hot/cold) and all drains and let gravity work, then blow the lines (for good measure) and antifreeze.
@manyman297 the two clear lines from the pressure relief valves are best to check they are empty of any water, I don't know the setting of those pressure relief valves but if you see water in the clear tubing would be good to drain it.

I am only on my first year of this journey.

USSBird

I am at step #10 of@TABNewbies unofficial manual. I am trying to blow out the 2021 T@B 400 BD water lines.  I have the Nautilus P3 handles at the 45 degree settings as described in the P3 manual (pg13 #5). The air compressor is set at 40 PSI and connected to the "City Inlet" with adapter.  When I open hot or cold valves on any of the plumbing there is no air or water coming out. That kind of makes sense looking at @TomCanada diagram of the P3, the air is being routed nowhere. 

Is the Nautilus manual wrong?  Shouldn't the handles be in the "City Water" setting to blow out to the water lines & fixtures?

I would go ahead and try City Water handle settings but I am paranoid about blowing up the water lines instead of blowing them out.  I have managed not to screw up too much so far and trying to keep it that way. Your help would be appreciated. 

(I did dbl check that the compressor is feeding air to the connector)