TAB 400 Boondock 2021 Winterizing

Denny16

If the compressor is  set for 40psi, you will not damage the water lines.  The 45-degree setting is for blowing out the low point drains.  To blow out the upper water lines, set the Nautilus to City Water setting to air inmthe lines between the hose and faucets.   You can turn on the compressor then go open each faucet one at a time.  Follow the Nautilus instructions and diagram on the panel.
cheers

USSBird

It works! Greenhorn moment passing.   Appreciate your help @Denny16 and all on this forum!

TABNewbies

Hi @USSBird, pleased it helped. I did not write it up I now see, but I did blow out the fixtures too with air, I thought I was at the 45 degree setting and it worked - but I had the air flowing out of the fresh tank overflow so perhaps with a smaller compressor then would not be enough to blow the other lines. Next year I will experiment with the City Water setting as @Denny16 notes (with Alde in bypass - I guess to stop blowing any water back into the Alde where it won't be flushed then with antifreeze). Thanks.

USSBird

@TABNewbies I appreciate your efforts with the detailed P3 winterization check list. It is needed.  There is a serious lack of detailed instructions in the Tab & the P3 manuals.

When I did blow out the lines in City Water setting there was a decent amount of water from each fixture (say 1-2 solo cups worth).

BTW I tried blowing the black tank flush line out as well. I got zero water coming out from what I could tell.

Denny16

There is a low point at the check valve in pre Nautilus installs on the TaB400 which blew out quite quickly.  I believe the Nautilus install eliminates the low point, and any water in the flush line drains out into the black tank after the flush is completed.  Blowing out the line to be sure is always a good idea.
cheers

ScottG

@TomCanada, isn't there a siphon inlet on the Nautilus P3 in addition to the city water inlet? If so, how would that factor in to your schematic?

TomCanada

ScottG said:

@TomCanada, isn't there a siphon inlet on the Nautilus P3 in addition to the city water inlet? If so, how would that factor in to your schematic?

Hi Scott - the diagram shows both siphoning modes. Siphon to fixtures ("winterize") as well as siphon to tank ("sanitize").  The inlet is the same port as the city water. The only other outside port is the black water flush.

Mack

Hi all. First time trailer owner here with new T@B 400. Thanks for all the great info and advice! The ALDE manual shows blowing out the lines before pumping in anti-freeze. Is this necessary or just best practice? 

Denny16

Mack, blowing out the lines, especially the hot water side, is Best procedure, as antifreeze is not pumped into the Alde hot water tank, so blowing it out, insures most of the water is cleared from it and respective pipes.  Always set the Alde bypass valve as shown for Winterize to prevent antifreeze solution during satire from going into the hot water tank and Flo tank.  If you have the Nautilus, the red valve handle in the middle of the panel is the Alde bypass valve.  Use winterize position winter prep/antifreeze and sanitize setting for cleaning the water tank, per procedures outlined in the manual.  Eidt: (For the Sanitize procedure, see Aharon’s explanation below).
 Cheers 

Mack

Denny16 said:

Mack, blowing out the lines, especially the hot water side, is Best procedure, as antifreeze is not pumped into the Alde hot water tank, so blowing it out, insures most of the water is cleared from it and respective pipes.  Always set the Alde bypass false lever to prevent antifreeze or bleach solution during satire from going into the hot water tank and Flo tank.  If you have the Nautilus, the red valve handle in the middle of the panel is the Alde bypass valve.  Use winterize position for both winter prep/antifreeze and sanitize procedures (Nautilus display is incorrect for Sanitize process.
 Cheers 

Thanks Denny16! Very much appreciated. Guess I need to buy a blowout plug now. 

Just to clarify re: Nautilus handle position... 

In the manual it says "Turn the handles to a 45 degree angle as shown in the Nautilus Panel Winterizing Instructions." Then do the blowing out procedure. Then turn to Winterize to add Anti-freeze. 

However, are you saying to have Nautilus set to Winterize for blowing out and adding anti-freeze?

Sharon_is_SAM

The purpose of turning the handles to a 45 degree angle is to blow out the manifold behind the Nautilus panel where water tends to collect.  When you use antifreeze as Nautilus intended, you don't want to dilute the antifreeze.

Also, please note that the Red valve in Sanitize does prevent flow into the Alde.  Please note the blue valve and the "Inactive Section" in light blue as diagramed by @MuttonChops.  The blue valve prevents forward flow to the red valve.  

Denny16

Thanks Sharon for the Sanitize diagram valve setting clarification, when using siphoning method to add antifreeze using the light blue valve.  

My Alde bypass valve setting comment was aimed at when adding antifreeze, not blowing out.  To blow out the Alde, you need to be in normal  city (non Boondock) camping mode.  As Sharon mentioned, use the 45-degree position to also blow out the Nautilus valve manifold system.  

Cheers 

Mack

Thanks Sharon_is_SAM and Denny16. Good info and very helpful. 

Maybe you guys might be able to help with one more question regarding blowing out the lines?

The manual says:

6. When water has stopped flowing from all openings, close the drains and fixtures.
7. Turn the handles to a 45 degree angle as shown in the Nautilus Panel Winterizing Instructions.
8. Connect an air hose to the city water connection. You will need an adaptor with a pressure gauge.
9. When blowing out the system with air, DO NOT exceed 30 PSI pressure in the plumbing lines. Damage may occur to the inline water regulator and other plumbing components.

That reads like you pump air into the system with the drains and fixtures closed until 30 psi is built up. Then open the drains?

Seems weird that you wouldn't just leave drains open and just start pumping air into them?

Sharon_is_SAM

Denny16 said:

Mack, blowing out the lines, especially the hot water side, is Best procedure, as antifreeze is not pumped into the Alde hot water tank, so blowing it out, insures most of the water is cleared from it and respective pipes.  Always set the Alde bypass false lever to prevent antifreeze or bleach solution during satire from going into the hot water tank and Flo tank.  If you have the Nautilus, the red valve handle in the middle of the panel is the Alde bypass valve.  Use winterize position for both winter prep/antifreeze and sanitize procedures (Nautilus display is incorrect for Sanitize process.
 Cheers 

@Denny16 - the Nautilus instructions for Sanitizing the fresh water tank does not require moving the red valve handle to horizontal as the blue valve blocks forward flow to the Alde.  This was noted early on by owners with the Nautilus. I don’t want new owners to think that the Nautilus instructions are wrong.  Trust the Nautilus diagram on your TaB!  I will say that it does not allow forward flow of bleach into the plumbing - only sanitizes the fresh tank.  

@Mack - The Nautilus intends for you to use antifreeze. The Nautilus Instructions blow out is only intended to remove water from behind the Nautilus panel where it tends to collect - not to blow out the entire plumbing system (Powerfill to drain, then blow out with valve handles at 45 degrees, then add antifreeze in the Winterize mode).   Prior to the Nautilus, TaB owners routinely blew out the full plumbing lines as a sole method of winterizing.  The TaB 400 Owner Manual Winterize instructions attempted to combine the full blow out with the addition of antifreeze.  

If you plan to use antifreeze in the plumbing, you do not need to blow out all the lines.  Close your drains after blowing out the Nautilus manifold (the 45 degree valve blow out).

If you plan to blow out all the lines, close the low point drains after blowing out the Nautilus manifold, then proceed to open one tap/toilet/shower at a time.  Although the flow volume of the compressor is what moves the water through the plumbing, keeping the drains closed, allows you to force the water through each tap to systematically empty each line.  If you leave the valves at 45 degrees when you do this, it appears that water will enter the Alde tank, so probably best to turn the red handle horizontal or, just plan to drain the Alde again.

Hope this helps!

Mack

Sharon_is_SAM thank you again, your knowledge is incredible and your explanations are very clear. 

This was so helpful "(Powerfill to drain, then blow out with valve handles at 45 degrees, then add antifreeze in the Winterize mode). "

Another question if you don't mind. 

When you hook up an air compressor do you run air only until the gauge reads 30 psi or do you have to make sure your compressor doesn't put out too much air? My air compressor has an air delivery capacity of a 100 psi.

Denny16

@Sharon_is_SAM, thanks, I did edit my previous post, and I get the light blue valve setting for Sanitize procedure, from your previous post, sorry about adding confusion.  

As for my blowing out suggestions, this was not to blow out all the water lines, just the Alde hot water tanks, which do not get filled with antifreeze.  I edited my previous posts to eliminate any confusion on my part.  

Cheers 

Sharon_is_SAM

@Mack - first use an oil free compressor or one with a filter.  It should have a pressure gauge and even better if you can set the pressure limit.  Lastly, it is the volume of air (CFM) that enhances the blow out.  I read that the CFM increases at lower PSI, but I don’t know how true that is.  With the Nautilus valves at 45 degrees, just hook up the compressor to the TaB via a Schrader valve, let the pressure climb to 35 or so and it should blow the water out of the manifold.  Then proceed to the “Winterize” setting to add antifreeze.

Anybody know what CFM will work best with our TaBs?

Mack

@Sharon_is_SAM, thank you. I used my cheap weak bicycle air compressor pump and nothing happened. I hooked up my 100psi Air Compressor but just gently squeezed on the trigger and a fair bit of water shot out each drain as I did them one at a time. So hopefully I'm good! 

Denny16

You can get an air compressor regulator and use the quick disconnect fittings to add one to your compressor to regulate the pressure to 35 psi.  

Cheers 

Mack

Denny16 yes I was thinking about that, might grab one tomorrow. Thanks!

Mack

Hey All, 

Thanks to this forum and lots of good advice I believe I have winterized our new TAB 400 correctly. Just two things I'm worried about.

1. I only needed 2 gallons of anti-freeze to get it flowing through the hot and cold for everything including the outside taps, kitchen faucet, bathroom faucet, and the shower head, plus flushing into the toilet, and finally adding 5 cups to the kitchen and bathroom drains, and 10 cups in the shower drain. Yet I've seen where it says you need 4 to 5 gallons of anti-freeze?

2. After I finished with the anti-freeze and the Nautilus still in By-pass mode I opened the Alde drain valves one more time. Is there any chance anti-freeze could have come into the the Alde via the drain valves? 

bergger

1.  Yes it only takes about 2 gallons to fill the lines with antifreeze.  However I usually use 3-4 gallons.   I usually pour a some extra down the drain to get enough into the black and gray tanks so I can get antifreeze into the gate valves of the tanks.  Those are prone to freeze damage.  You do not need much in the black tank as it is a large drain pipe and is attached to the bottom of the tank. Just barley crack the gate valve and it will flow out.  The gray tank due to it's design requires a bit more to get it flowing.  Also make sure you cracked the low point drains to make sure antifreeze comes out.

2.  Not sure how long you had the by-pass opened but most likely some got in there.  It was not under much pressure so if you just opened it and immediately closed in I'm sure very little got in there.  If it was open longer then there may be more and it may be possible that your cold water lines are not completely full anymore.  May want to check that.  As far as it getting into the Alde if you do not plan on using it this winter I would not worry much about it.  Just flush it out with water in the spring prior to using it.  Or if you plan on using the heat this winter do a quick flush now and re-winterize.  

Mack

@bergger thank you very much. Great advice and information. We won't be using the ALDE this winter so I'll will be sure to flush before first use next spring. 

I have anti-freeze coming out of the low point drains and gate valves on the black and gray tanks. So do you think I should be good or should I still add more anti-freeze?

Denny16

Mack, look under your galley sink, you should have an HevPO valve drain instead of a J (P) trap, which does not need antifreeze.  The bathroom sink also does not have a J trap, so any antifreeze you put here will just go into the gray tank.  As for the shower, some have a traditional J trap, some a HevPO valve.  You can remove the little panel under the washroom door and look back under the shower to see which type of drain you have.  Only traditional J (P) trap type drains need antifreeze.
 Cheers 

Mack

@Denny16 ahh good to know. Thank you!

Mack

Ok, so I was just informed by a tech that in his opinion the only way to safely winterize the Alde is to not bypass and put anti-freeze through the entire system. I believe he is very knowledgable and knows what he is talking about. 

However the T@B manual states: 

"13. Turn the Alde Bypass valve in the Nautilus compartment to the “Bypass” setting. This will keep antifreeze from getting into the Alde boiler and Flow unit (if equipped). This is very important! The Bypass valve must stay in bypass setting until the camper is ready to de-winterize/sanitize/flush the system. This is typically in the spring after there is no more risk of freezing."


Thoughts?

pthomas745

"A tech?"  Sounds like item number eleventy million on "strange things dealers say".  If the Alde tank doesn't have any water in it....it is winterized. No need to fill it with antifreeze. 

The whole issue with the RV antifreeze in the boiler is if the antifreeze you are using might have a low "boiling point" and could be an issue. 

Several threads.  https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/12870/anti-freeze-in-the-alde-heater

Mack

@pthomas745 thanks for clarifying the anti-freeze in the boiler concern. My understanding is to drain the Alde of water you just open the yellow valves and let it drain, which I did. So my Alde should be good, correct?

pthomas745

The two Alde valves, and the two low point drains should take care of the Alde tanks. The thing we are trying to prevent in winterizing is the expansion of water as it turns to ice in an enclosed space.  "Mostly empty" will suffice for the Alde tank, etc. 

And, I don't blame techs and others who work on trailers with some of their ideas and theories.  This stuff is hard to get a handle on, and things get confused, signals get mixed up.   Our advantage here is the great "corporate memory" that we can reference to attempt to keep things straight.

Mack

@pthomas745 thank you! In our 2022 for the Alde system I had to lift the two yellow valves one on the hot line and one on the cold line. That allowed water to drain out tubes under the trailer. Is their another valve I need to open/drain on the Alde or is that it?