Inverter draw while boondocking question

NoVaGuy

I was boondocking in NC this past weekend.  Had plenty of power Friday night.  Camper was in the sun all day Saturday but did not seem to get a good charge.  When I entered the camper Sat night, I had a low battery warning.  After having the Jensen on for 5 minutes, I heard a beeping coming from under the right front bench.  I pressed the button there and the beeping stopped.  I think that button is for the inverter.

The only load during the day was the refrigerator running on propane.  No sure what dragged the charge down.  Does the inverter represent that much of a load?

VictoriaP

A couple of things to note:

- The fridge is never the only load, unless you’ve taken steps to eliminate all parasitic draws on the trailer. The CO monitor, Alde, Jensen stereo and Jensen TV, your inverter, and the USB ports all draw some current unless the battery cutoff is turned off. It’s harder for that parasitic draw to drain the two battery setup of your 400 than the stock single battery of a 320, but it’s possible. 

- It’s fall, and the sun no longer provides as much energy in fall and winter even in the desert Southwest as it does in summer. As you’re not in the desert Southwest, your solar panels may not be generating enough to keep up with your usage.

That said, there may also be something wrong with either the panels or the batteries. I’d start by checking the wiring at the solar controller as it may have worked loose. How are you monitoring both the solar production and the state of charge on your batteries?

Sharon_is_SAM

@NoVaGuy - was that your first time using solar while boondocking?  How do you monitor your battery?

NoVaGuy

Sharon,

Yes, this was the first time boondocking completely off grid for any length of time.  I have removed most parasitic loads.  Jensen and TV have kill switches.  I have a Victron that monitors the battery.  Still having some issues getting it set up.  For some reason it always indicates 100% charge even when the indicated voltage is say, 10.8V.  I must have something set up wrong.

I still need to connect back up to the Solar controller.  For some reason it loses the Bluetooth connection and getting access to read the code is a bit of a PAIN.

Also may be having issues with the fridge on 12v.  Not sure yet, still need to investigate, but had it set on 12v for the drive home yesterday and it was not working even when TV was on.

m_lewis

Depending on what is being powered by the inverter, it can range from less than 1/2 an amp to over 200 amps. I understand the 2020 model is wired such that the inverter can supply various outlets, whereas my 2019 model only has one outlet for the inverter. 

Out of interest, what was the source of the low battery warning? Did you check the Victron Solar app to see the battery voltage?

NoVaGuy

@m_lewis There was nothing plugged in to any of the outlets during the weekend other than my cell phone on charge.

The Alde screen had the low battery warning.  The Victron showed 10.8V.

It is possible that something in the Alde system was getting power?  I had it set up for Propane but I am still new to this and may have had something else active?  I did enjoy a hot shower Saturday night after having been out dog training all day.

Sharon_is_SAM

The Alde on LPG uses very little 12 v power (both circuit board and control panel).  I looked at another discussion regarding your Victron and I suspect it is not set up correctly.  When you said “did not seem to get a good charge” what did your Victron read?

NoVaGuy

@Sharon_is_SAM

After being in the Sun all day, the charge was 11.4 when I popped in to grab a cold beer before dinner. Came back after dinner to take a shower and watch a movie and that is when the Alde showed the low voltage indication I think 10.8

VictoriaP

Sharon_is_SAM said:

The Alde on LPG uses very little 12 v power (both circuit board and control panel).  I looked at another discussion regarding your Victron and I suspect it is not set up correctly.  When you said “did not seem to get a good charge” what did your Victron read?

Per @BrianZ in this thread, Alde takes 2 aH a day in parasitic draw. Not insignificant, though not enough to rapidly draw down a 400 either. https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/6415/phantom-drain/p2 Bigger issue on a 320 with stock battery.

I wonder if @NoVaGuy‘strailer didn’t have a full charge to begin with? Tow vehicle alternator may not supply enough charge for the trailer. Fridge on 12v on the way to camp could be a decent drain, then if something isn’t right with solar, there’d be little or no additional charging. 

Just thinking out loud. First thing to do is plug the trailer in for a couple of days and charge those batteries back up ASAP.

m_lewis

I agree that you must get those batteries charged up ASAP, else run the risk of destroying them.
Mine will run the refrigerator on 12 V (2-way, not the 3-way), the Alde on propane, Jenson, alarms, lights, charge phones, etc for 24 hours with no problem, only drawing the batteries down about 20%, with almost no solar charge under trees.
When traveling, the solar + charge from the tow vehicle more than compensates for the refrigerator and other draws; we never turn off anything, including the battery disconnect.
Either the batteries were nearly discharged at the start or you have something seriously wrong somewhere drawing much more current than you think. 

BrianZ

Also thinking out loud (and I'm not really familiar with how the 400 is set up with inverter etc), is it possible you may have had both gas & electric turned on in the Alde?  Might be easy to do if you only turned gas on, but did not specifically turn off electric in the control panel.

N7SHG_Ham

The inverter is probably the culprit here, idle state with nothing plugged in still consumes battery power, if it was on all weekend that would draw a good amount of power out if your battery.

Do you have a manual for the inverter? It should list the idle no load power draw.

It sounds like the alarm you heard was the low voltage alarm for the inverter and it went away when you turned the inverter off.

For charging phone I suggest using the USB ports direct to phone, more efficient.

NoVaGuy

@BrianZ:  That is very possible, yes.

@N7SHG_Ham I think that it may have been the low voltage alarm for the inverter which leads me to believe that it was the culprit.  The phone was plugged into a USB port in the outlet by the bed.

Camper is in storage and will get a solar bath for two weeks before I take it out again.  I will check on it this weekend to see the charge state.  If low, will bring home and connect to shore power for a bit.

pthomas745

What you need is a multimeter to measure the battery until you straighten out the Victron measurements.  Something is wrong with your setup somewhere.

SweetlyHome

I discovered the hard way that if the inverter is left on in storage it will discharge the battery.  It is wired directly to the battery, not through the shutoff switch on my T@B.  I became aware when I entered my T@B in storage, battery switch off, and had to figure out where a fan was running.  Inverter fan was trying to cool the unit in the over 100º cabin temp.  We now double check to make sure the inverter is off unless we specifically want to use it.

I don't think having the Alde on electric heat would be part of the issue.  Only one or two outlets, depending on the year, are attached to the inverter output.

Denny16

Yes, the Alde only turns on in electric mode mode, when you are connected to shore power.  The Inverter will draw quite a bit when turned on, even without a load on it.  This is NoVaGuy’s issue, he had the inverter on all weekend, even without a load, it will drain the battery quickly.
cheers

pthomas745

This is the thread from last year when owners discovered the inverter, if not switched off, draws 1.2 amps. You need to look at the model of your inverter closely, since there are a couple of models with different behaviors.  See the RH5555 Oct 2019 post in this thread.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/10071/400-inverter-parasitic-drain

Denny16

The 2018-2020 TaB 400 has a AIMS 1200:Pure Sine Wave Inverter w/o cutover switch installed by nüCamp.  The draw is 1.2-1.5 amps without a load.  That would give a 10 amp drain per 8 hr time frame, or around 30 amps per 24 hrs.

BrianZ

The Alde 3010 manual lists 12V DC power consumption of up to 1.9 Amps, which I presume includes background electronics plus glycol circulation pump.  Maybe someone knows what it is on the newer models with the extra pump module.  This would contribute to battery consumption even while running on gas.  That said, we still only consumed about 20AH total average per day while boondocking & heating with gas at night.  No inverter usage though.  If you added 30AH to that, 50AH per day would be more power than our single 100W solar panel could keep up with even on the best of sunny days at our latitude (~360 Wh/day max).

NoVaGuy

Great info and thank you all.  Explains why I did not have enough power for this trip.  Will see how things go in two weeks when I return to the same spot for a hunt test.  

pthomas745

The 1.9 amp draw from the Alde is only for a very short period of time:  From the Alde FAQ: 

There are two mechanisms in the Alde Compact boilers that draw >0.1 A current from the vehicle 12-volt battery. The exhaust fan venting waste gases (≈0.4 A), and the heating fluid being pumped around the circuit (≈0.2 A). So normal draw from the vehicle battery is between ≈0.2–0.6 A, including the control panel. Max draw is 1.9 A for approximately three seconds at system start-up.

Max draw from 120 V mains is ≈4.5 A on 1 (1 kW) or ≈9 A on 2 (2,1 kW)

NateColo

NoVaGuy said:

For some reason it always indicates 100% charge even when the indicated voltage is say, 10.8V.  I must have something set up wrong.

Hi there. If you have a Victron MPPT controller and it's reading 100% charge at 10.8V, it may be that you have the battery type set up incorrectly on the controller. The charge controller won't supply power from your panel to the battery if it thinks the battery is already fully charged.

DukeHewett

A neighbor who is not on this exchange has a 320 CS-S about 6 years old.  He says his Alde is drawing 1.4 Amps even when turned off, draining his battery. Has anyone else had this problem, and if so what is the cause/fix.   He is considering installing a cut-out switch to disconnect the Alde when not in use.   Has anyone done that, and if so how did you do it.   I'll encourage him to join the exchange to be able to discuss in better detail.   Thanks for any help.

Sharon_is_SAM

Older TaBs did not come with a battery switch.  In this case, removing the battery fuse will prevent parasitic battery drain.  I think you can turn off the Alde completely.  The CO/LPG alarm will cause battery drain as well as some LEDs on the entertainment units.  He has options of where and how to install a battery switch.

Denny16

A 1.4 amp drain when everything is turned off seems kind of high, sounds like a partial short somewhere?
 Cheers 

DukeHewett

The neighbor insists that it is just the ALDE that is drawing 1.4 amps even when all controls to it are turned off.   That doesn’t seem plausible without that energy showing up somewhere with heat or something from the ALDE.   He is thinking of putting a cut out switch on just the ALDE, not the battery itself.   That way they can enjoy all other aspects of the battery without the constant drain from the ALDE

pthomas745

Can you ask how this draw is being measured?  Multimeter?  Measuring the battery discharge over time?  How exactly?  How old is the battery? Does the battery hold a charge with the battery fuse removed?

Denny16

The Alde when it is turned off at the control panel, does not draw a significant current draw on my Victron Shunt monitor, any drain is going to be less than 0.20 amps, and not the 1.4 amps being mentioned here.  Something else is afoot.
 Cheers 

Dutch061

I measured .18 Amps with the Alde off, .85 Amps with it in standby, and 1.01 Amps with it running and circulating glycol on propane.

I laugh because people stress out about the step light, which by my measurement draws .03 Amps. If I have nothing on, the parasitic amp draw is around .34 Amps, which half (.18 Amps) of that would be the Alde. Still, I have 49 days available before I have any issues and the chances of not using it during the normal 3 seasons for that period of time is close to zero... 

Boils down to how you plan to camp, then make decisions that are based on those facts.

Brad

Denny16

Thanks Brad for the update with actual measurements.  This shows the drain is a lot less than the 1.4 amp reported above.
cheers

Popz

You may also want to check this troubleshooting guide from Tundra Inverters. https://www.tundrainverters.com/QTSG-0519-EN.pdf