Extended A-frame to reduce tongue weight

VictoriaP

Marceline said:

4ncar said:

@Marceline: I would agree with you in that with unibody construction, there are very specific attachment points that have been strengthened my the manufacturer of the vehicle in question. Deviating from these attachment points could prove disastrous. However, my takeaway from what @VictoriaP was saying, and I agree with also and the point has been well taken is, that just because an aftermarket hitch assembly is rated for x# of lbs, doesn’t increase the TV’s ability to safely tow more(increased value of said high assembly).

I was disagreeing with the specific point that I quoted. It’s misinformation that I’ve seen very often (more on the FB groups than here). Aftermarket hitches aren’t “usually anchored at different points than the hitch provided by car manufacturer.” 

But I do agree with her point that a beefier hitch doesn’t increase a vehicle’s towing capacity. 

Well, I can verify it happens on Subaru, and I’ve been told by more than one hitch installer that I asked while deciding on my next hitch  that it is not uncommon on other vehicle brands. But, using my 2020 Subaru Outback as an example, if you watch the installation videos out there for the OEM hitch versus Curt, Torklift, Stealth, etc., by design, the OEM attaches in a totally different location than all the others. It requires more labor to install the OEM than the aftermarket hitches for this reason. These are the best known, most commonly sold aftermarket hitches, not some flimsy unknown brand.

And maybe that’s a non issue from a safety perspective. Obviously, the 3rd party manufacturers think so. But it’s enough to tell me that, sorry, I’m no longer willing to risk it. I’m obviously not in the “never tow with a unibody” category, and as long as an aftermarket hitch is properly connected by a competent installer to the vehicle at the same attachment points as the OEM, I’d say it was fine, regardless of whether it was unibody or built on frame. 

But as near as I can tell? There are multiple well known bolt-on, no drill, aftermarket hitches that are built for easy installation rather than using the same attachment points as OEM. And that doesn’t leave me confident that they are always as safe. Which was a huge bummer personally, since they’re cheaper and often more attractive on cars like mine that don’t have the OEM hidden behind a removable bumper panel.

@m_lewis Some Jeep Grand Cherokee models are as high as 7200 lbs. I think some of the bigger Ford SUVs are too.

TabberJohn

VictoriaP said:

Denny16 said:

Adding a weight distribution hitch on a large TV like a F150 is a bad idea, as you could overload the TaB trailer axle Weight limits.  A WDH distributes the weight across the three axles, so you are going to add weight from the truck to the trailer.

@Denny16 If this is the case, we have a number of owners that I’ve seen here and on FB that may be in trouble. The F150 without a WDH maxes out at 500 lbs tongue weight, and plenty of 400s (not just the 2019, though they’re the heaviest) that have been weighed at over 500 once loaded, so people are using the WDH to fix that issue. Hmmm. 

Lets say you have an F150 with driver, passenger, and 250# of gear towing a T@B with a WDH because your tongue weight exceeds 500#.
How much extra load does the WDH place on the T@B?
What kind of wear and tear issues might occur if it's too much?
Or is this combo well within the limits of the T@B frame/axle specs? 
It certainly appears WDH on a F150 is designed for a trailer 3-5x the weight of a T@B.
When does more become too much? 

Denny16

From my understanding, and watching a demo video (which I can not relocate), a WDH spreads the total load of the trailer and TV across all the axles, in this case three with a single axle trailer.  The Video indicated using a full size truck with a small trailer like the TaB could over stress the trailer and possibly overload its axle.

OK, using this premise, let’s take a Ford F-150 crew cab, which starts out at with a minimum 4500lbs curb weight.  Now let’s add 500lbs for driver and passenger, and misc load items in the truck, this becomes 5,000lbs.  A TaB 400 comes in at 3500 lbs max, added to the 5,000 lbs F-150 and you have 8,500 total lbs between the truck and trailer.  A WDH is going to take that total weight and distribute it to all three axles equally so 8500/3=2833 lbs, so this would work, with a minimum F-150, without a heavy load. 

But a fully loaded F-150 comes in at 5697 lbs, plus 150lbs for fuel, 250 lbs for load and 350 lbs for driver and passenger, now you have 6447 lbs for truck weight, add in 3400 lbs for TaB400 loaded, and the total is 9850 lbs divided by 3 axles = 3,283 lbs of load per axle, plus the stress of the WHD on the frame, and you are back to a max towing situation.   So if it will work, depends on the total loaded weight of the truck being used, along with the weight of the TaB.

If you add any more cargo or passengers to the truck weight, you are going to exceed the 3500 lbs rating of the TaB.  So using this type of setup is going to require careful loading of both the trailer and truck.  In any case, you are probably going to exceed the load limit of the trailer frame at the front, with the stress a WDH adds to the frame.  Use a WDH if you must, but be careful how you load the truck and trailer.  I am not even considering the truck max axle loads, but assuming this in within their limits.  And this is dynamic weight, not a static load, so this adds to the vehicle and trailer stress.  Also Ford and other Truck manufacturers recommend a WDH for heavier trailers weighing 5,000 lbs or more.  A TaB400 comes in at 3500 lbs max, so is a WDH really needed?  Airbags or progressive rear springs on the TV axle can also help keep the TV level while towing the TaB.
cheers

m_lewis

Got in a bit of an argument this afternoon with the manager of the local Ford dealer about tongue weight. Had inquired about an F150 and he was upset that I wasn’t  buying one. I told him the problem was my trailer’s tongue weight was 560 lbs but the truck’s limit was 500 lbs, so it was not going to work. 

His last message was “vehicles don’t have a tongue weight limit, only trailers do.”
Sorry. No sale. It is really hard to get straight facts these days. 

VictoriaP

m_lewis said:

Got in a bit of an argument this afternoon with the manager of the local Ford dealer about tongue weight. Had inquired about an F150 and he was upset that I wasn’t  buying one. I told him the problem was my trailer’s tongue weight was 560 lbs but the truck’s limit was 500 lbs, so it was not going to work. 

His last message was “vehicles don’t have a tongue weight limit, only trailers do.”
Sorry. No sale. It is really hard to get straight facts these days. 

I wish I could say I was surprised. Sigh.

rh5555

@m_lewis - did you proceed with your A-frame extension?  Would be interested to know how it went.

Dutch061

m_lewis said:

@rfuss928, yes, the X5 has a 600 lb tongue limit and at least 6200 lb total trailer weight, so the 400 would be within spec. Funny that the very popular F150 only has a 500 lb limit. 

I am just a little shy of the $60k + needed to acquire an X5. 

Not sure where your source of information is regarding the F-150, but here is a link that allows you to sort by year and other filters. 

https://axleadvisor.com/ford-f-150-towing-capacity/#:~:text=Ford%20F-150%20Towing%20Capacity%20Table%20%E2%80%93%202009-2018%20,TOWING%203.73:1,T%20...%20%206%20more%20rows

In this case I am using my 2017 Crew Cab short box with a 3.5 Ecoboost. When I link to the "source" it takes me to the owners manual on FMC website. 

In the source information is a table that lists the information with the last words being as follows:

Calculating the Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight for Your Vehicle

1. Start with the gross combined weight rating for your vehicle model and axle ratio. See the previous charts.

1. Subtract all of the following that apply to your vehicle:

• Vehicle curb weight.
• Hitch hardware weight, for example a draw bar, ball, locks or weight distributing hardware.
• Driver weight.
• Passenger(s) weight.
• Payload, cargo and luggage weight.
• Aftermarket equipment weight.

This equals the maximum loaded trailer weight for this combination.

Note:   The trailer tongue load is considered part of the payload for your vehicle. Reduce the total payload by the final trailer tongue weight.

Note:   Consult an authorized dealer to determine the maximum trailer weight allowed for your vehicle if you are not sure.

Hope this clears the air.

P.S. most information you will find will state that the tongue weight should be 10% of the trailer weight. This can also help you in your calculation.

Brad

m_lewis

rh5555 said:

@m_lewis - did you proceed with your A-frame extension?  Would be interested to know how it went.

I did not extend the A-frame, as calculations indicate it require several feet to make a significant difference.
After carefully evaluating other options, I decided to load the camper with as much weight as possible aft of the axle. This kept to total weight the same, but transferred about 150 lbs off the tongue and onto the axle, taking the tongue down to 375 lbs. Still a little high, but not under 10% of the total weight. 
I am still interested in moving the batteries to the far rear of the compartment, as that should take off another 50-60 lbs, maybe more. I'll have to do some reengineering of the floor to make sure the batteries are well supported and the floor is strong enough to keep them securely in place. This will allow more flexibility in how we load the camper, thus making quick one night stops easier as we would not have to move a bunch of stuff off the bed before sleeping.

m_lewis

Dutch061 said:
Not sure where your source of information is regarding the F-150, but here is a link that allows you to sort by year and other filters. 

https://axleadvisor.com/ford-f-150-towing-capacity/#:~:text=Ford%20F-150%20Towing%20Capacity%20Table%20%E2%80%93%202009-2018%20,TOWING%203.73:1,T%20...%20%206%20more%20rows

In this case I am using my 2017 Crew Cab short box with a 3.5 Ecoboost. When I link to the "source" it takes me to the owners manual on FMC website. 

In the source information is a table that lists the information with the last words being as follows:

Calculating the Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight for Your Vehicle

1. Start with the gross combined weight rating for your vehicle model and axle ratio. See the previous charts.

1. Subtract all of the following that apply to your vehicle:

• Vehicle curb weight.
• Hitch hardware weight, for example a draw bar, ball, locks or weight distributing hardware.
• Driver weight.
• Passenger(s) weight.
• Payload, cargo and luggage weight.
• Aftermarket equipment weight.

This equals the maximum loaded trailer weight for this combination.

Note:   The trailer tongue load is considered part of the payload for your vehicle. Reduce the total payload by the final trailer tongue weight.

Note:   Consult an authorized dealer to determine the maximum trailer weight allowed for your vehicle if you are not sure.

Hope this clears the air.

P.S. most information you will find will state that the tongue weight should be 10% of the trailer weight. This can also help you in your calculation.

Brad

I got my F150 tongue weight limits from a chart in this web page: https://www.phillongford.com/2020-ford-f-150-towing-capacity.htm
It is difficult to find this chart online at Ford, although I can find it a a few dealer's sites. The same chart is posted above by @TabberJohn. It clearly states a maximum tongue weight 500 lbs, whether with the on-bumper mount or a hitch receiver.

Dutch061

@m_lewis I'm pretty sure that this is a typo because with the GCVW Rating and trailer towing capacity of a F-150, everyone on this forum pulling a TAB 400 would be at or over the limit.  People using Jeep pick-ups claim to have a higher tongue weight capability than this. In fact, in this chart they show a 3.5 Ecoboost with a Max Towing Capacity of 13,200 Lbs. Pretty sure that will NEVER be 500 Lbs. at the tongue (or less) but it would fall under the 1400 Lbs. referenced below.

Here is a "generic statement" regarding Class IV Trailers. 

Class IV hitches used as weight carrying are rated up to 10,000 lbs. gross trailer weight (GTW) with a 1000 lbs. maximum trailer tongue weight (TW). Class IV hitches used for weight distributing are rated up to 14,000 lbs.

Have a great day!

Brad

kmulh

Dutch061 said:

@m_lewis I'm pretty sure that this is a typo because with the GCVW Rating and trailer towing capacity of a F-150, everyone on this forum pulling a TAB 400 would be at or over the limit.  People using Jeep pick-ups claim to have a higher tongue weight capability than this. In fact, in this chart they show a 3.5 Ecoboost with a Max Towing Capacity of 13,200 Lbs. Pretty sure that will NEVER be 500 Lbs. at the tongue (or less) but it would fall under the 1400 Lbs. referenced below.

Here is a "generic statement" regarding Class IV Trailers. 

Class IV hitches used as weight carrying are rated up to 10,000 lbs. gross trailer weight (GTW) with a 1000 lbs. maximum trailer tongue weight (TW). Class IV hitches used for weight distributing are rated up to 14,000 lbs.

Have a great day!

Brad

The max tongue weight for my 2020 F150 with max tow package is indeed 500lbs, anything higher requires a WDH.

m_lewis

Dutch061 said:

@m_lewis I'm pretty sure that this is a typo because with the GCVW Rating and trailer towing capacity of a F-150, everyone on this forum pulling a TAB 400 would be at or over the limit.  People using Jeep pick-ups claim to have a higher tongue weight capability than this. In fact, in this chart they show a 3.5 Ecoboost with a Max Towing Capacity of 13,200 Lbs. Pretty sure that will NEVER be 500 Lbs. at the tongue (or less) but it would fall under the 1400 Lbs. referenced below.

Here is a "generic statement" regarding Class IV Trailers. 

Class IV hitches used as weight carrying are rated up to 10,000 lbs. gross trailer weight (GTW) with a 1000 lbs. maximum trailer tongue weight (TW). Class IV hitches used for weight distributing are rated up to 14,000 lbs.

Have a great day!

Brad

I agree that nearly everyone pulling a T@B 400 with an F150 would be at or over the manufacturer's published limit.

It is not a typo, the tongue weight limit for an F150, bumper or hitch, is indeed 500 lbs, unless a WDH is used. Then tongue weights as high as 1,320 pounds are allowed.

The chart does not say that 13,200 lb trailers are ok without a WDH.

I see F150s pulling all sorts of trailers, some that seem are surely over the 500 lb limit. These are also noticeably squatted in the rear, with headlights suitable for hunting treed coons. I must conclude that there are a lot of people driving F150s with no idea how much they are violating Ford's specifications for tongue weight limits. The trucks seem to survive, at least for a while.

Denny16

The issue with exceeding the tongue weight limit on a TV, like the F-150, results in pushing the rear end down, and reducing the weight over the front axle, leading to less control of the truck/vehicle.  If the headlights are printing up, then the weight over the front wheels is reduced, shifting it on the rear axle, which can then be overloaded.  

Also the weight on the hitch is behind the rear axle, and acts like a lever on the vehicle, pushing down on the rear axle, while lifting up the weight on the front axle.  A WDH takes the vehicle weight and the tongue weight of the trailer and distributes it to all three axles equally.  This includes the trucks weight.  That is why a WDH can overload the TaB’s axle max weight rating.

 Each axle on a truck has it max weight allowance, in addition to total payload and rear hitch tongue weight. Exceed the tongue weight rating, and you can loose control of the vehicle, due to understeering  or oversteering issues.

While a truck may carry 1200 lbs payload, it can not all be on the rear axle.  The sticker on the door lists the total weight for the vehicle, and weight rating for each axle.  Because the engine is up front, the axle rating for the rear axle is usually higher than the front.

m_lewis

Denny16 said:

The issue with exceeding the tongue weight limit on a TV, like the F-150, results in pushing the rear end down, and reducing the weight over the front axle, leading to less control of the truck/vehicle.  If the headlights are printing up, then the weight over the front wheels is reduced, shifting it on the rear axle, which can then be overloaded.  

Also the weight on the hitch is behind the rear axle, and acts like a lever on the vehicle, pushing down on the rear axle, while lifting up the weight on the front axle.  A WDH takes the vehicle weight and the tongue weight of the trailer and distributes it to all three axles equally.  This includes the trucks weight.  That is why a WDH can overload the TaB’s axle max weight rating.

 Each axle on a truck has it max weight allowance, in addition to total payload and rear hitch tongue weight. Exceed the tongue weight rating, and you can loose control of the vehicle, due to understeering  or oversteering issues.

While a truck may carry 1200 lbs payload, it can not all be on the rear axle.  The sticker on the door lists the total weight for the vehicle, and weight rating for each axle.  Because the engine is up front, the axle rating for the rear axle is usually higher than the front.

I am painfully aware of the loss of control issue from excessive loading on the rear of the tow vehicle. My father-in-law was driving a F-150 pulling a three axle trailer loaded with lumber from a pressure treating facility. A tire on the frontmost trailer axle blew, shifting more weight to the TV. This happened in a tight curve, at only 25 MPH, but the truck lost steering control, crossed the centerline, ran off the pavement and into a large pine tree. The point of impact was the driver's door. His wife was sitting next to him and suffered a broken finger. He died of massive blunt force trauma. He was a very honorable man, but this is one aspect of his life I do not strive to emulate.

So I am very concerned about tongue weight, balance, overloading, and equipment condition. That's why I am seeking advice, spending time and money to verify operational safety, and ever vigilant of conditions. 

jkjenn

Do you live in a state that requires state inspections for your trailer?  Also, will altering the frame like this impact your insurance policy?

dragonsdofly

Excellent points @jkjenn! I hadn't thought of the frame alteration in anything but the actual engineering criteria facet. Insurance and inspection were angles I didn't think to apply. I love this community for the many viewpoints presented for exactly those reasons. -Denise

Denny16

@m_lewis sorry to hear about your father in law.  I agree, better to error on the side of caution, than take risks.  I learned this lesson whilst I was in my 30s towing a 26-foot Kenskill trailer, with my brother’s 52 Chevy truck, nearly lost it when the trailer ripped the ball right out of the truck’s dock bumper.  This was an accident waiting to happen, but luckily I managed to regain control.  Electric trailer brakes finally stopped the trailer before it rear ended the truck.

With its limited tongue weight, I would pass on a Ford F-150.  Try looking at the Dodge Ram 1500 or the new 2021 Dakota, which has a 700lbs/7,000 tow rating.  I had the 2002 Dakota with factory max tow setup, and it was good for 6,000/600 lbs, had a lower gear differential, oil cooler, auto transmission (manual was not an option with tow package), and larger battery/alternator.  This rig worked great, used it to tow my tractor around.  The Doge V-6 is a great workhorse engine, and the new version seems to be holding up well too.

The new Dakota or my Jeep JT is the smallest TV would use to tow a TaB400.  While some of the larger SUVs seem to do fine, I prefer the ladder frame and solid axles on a truck for towing, and the added weight in the TV.  
cheers

rh5555

Seems like F150 owners need something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCHSCHtKJzc

Denny16

That jockey wheel arrangement requires a specific purpose made trailer tongue setup.  Nice idea though, I could have used that on my Kenskill trailer.  However, looks like a 55mph or less towing setup.  That ruck shown is what I should have used to move my big Kenskill single axle Vacation Mobil Home, as it was called back then (it was not self contained more like what we call a Park Model now).
cheers

Dutch061

I am sorry but at the risk of continuing to stir this about F-150's, I can't be clear enough that the 500 LB weight limit is for the Bumper Hitch only, it doesn't apply to the Class IV receiver Hitch.

Please see the attached PDF in regards to 2019 Model year F-150's.

On the first page they list a maximum towing capacity of 13,200 Lbs. and a maximum payload capacity for the model(s) with the highest ratings as a footnote right below it. As was mentioned in a previous post, these limits change based on options of the vehicle, number of passengers, etc. and are clearly printed on the label in the driver's door jamb. This is what should be used for the reference point, and if I were home I would look at the sticker on mine. 

If you look at the bottom of the pages with the weight tables, you will notice the following text:

Notes:
• Calculated with SAE J2807 method.
• Do not exceed trailer weight of 5,000 lbs. when towing with bumper only.
• Trailer tongue load weight should be 10% of total loaded trailer weight. Make sure vehicle payload (reduce by option weight) will accommodate trailer tongue load weight and weight of passengers and cargo added to towing vehicle. Addition of trailer tongue load weight and weight of passengers and cargo cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed rear GAWR or GVWR. These ratings can be found on the vehicle Safety Compliance Certification Label.

What this clearly states is that the Tongue Weight should be 10% of the trailer weight with the maximum NOT to exceed the vehicle payload capacity. NO WHERE does it state the tongue weight limit for the Class IV receiver is 500 Lbs. I'm sorry, this is just not the correct information.

So, why doesn't FMC clearly print the maximum tongue weight for use the the Class IV receiver? Because this varies by payload capacity (vehicle options), number of passengers, additional weight being carried in the bed, etc. There simply isn't a "one size fits all" answer for this. 

The F-150 has the "Highest towing capacity" of the half ton pickups across the board (as per FMC). Switching to another brand will not allow you to tow more weight.

Lastly, when it comes to WD hitches, it is not a requirement for a WD hitch to tow 13,200 Lbs. (in this example) if the tongue weight is 10% and you are not exceeding the payload capacity of the vehicle. WD hitches were designed to allow transfer the tongue weight to the trailer to reduce the "sag in the back" which was also mentioned before. If you search you can likely find the original application was to level station wagons towing travel trailers. In fact, I remember an advertisement where a full size FWD car (Olds Toronado or similar) was used and they actually removed the rear wheels for the brochure. 

The only thing worse than being uninformed is misinformed. Given a choice, I would rather be uninformed than misinformed...

Brad 

Denny16

I looked this up in two sources, and both stated the 500 lbs limit, including for the factory tow package, which did no make sense.  I can see the 500 lbs limit for the bumper hitch, and that seems like a stretch to me also.  Not sure I would put a 5,000 lbs trailer with. 500 lbs tongue weight on a bumper hitch either. 

I agree, a proper tow hitch receiver is the best option.  Thanks for the update.
cheers

Verna

@Dutch061, thank you, and I am going to research this discrepancy on the towing limits because I was told by the salesman that I could tow the amounts you show. (and we know about the lengths salesmen will go to sell). And he showed me in the owner’s manual those stats. But, others on this forum convinced me I was wrong. So now, I will try to remember to
get my owner’s manual and read it further knowing now what I need to know. Thank you!

kmulh

I checked the manual on my F150 and it recommends limiting tongue weight to 500lbs without a WDH. With a WDH it is 1320 lbs, with max trailer weight of 13200 lbs.

m_lewis

It would be very helpful if those of you with this vehicle could post photos of the door decal giving your individual weight capacities, as well as any options that would affect it. 

I agree that the information published just doesn’t seem right. Why would a class IV hitch not be able to bear more weight than a bumper? And it seems reasonable to require a WDH at some trailer/tongue weight, so what is that point?
Further, why is it so hard to find FMC’s published limits? I see where individual options would make a huge difference, but is that the only reason? I am guessing the limits are indeed 500 lbs without a WDH, but that would be detrimental to their claims of largest towing capacity and therefore sales. Yet it seems their lawyers would prefer them to state the limits in order to limit liability when things go wrong. On the other hand, Ford has a history of knowing about a life safety issue yet not disclosing it, as the payout in lawsuits is calculated to be lower than the cost of fixing the problem. Remember Pinto gas tanks. 

I am not Ford bashing here, as I have owned several. I assume all companies make risk/reward prognostications and operate their business for maximum profit. I also assume Ford learned a very important lesson from the Pinto, but that does not mean they will disclose every known risk with operating their vehicles. Maybe in the owners manual. 

Dutch061

@m_lewis, I will post a picture of mine when I return home which is still likely to be 3 weeks from today.

With this being said, for clarification a WD hitch would not be needed to tow 13,200 Lbs. (if your F-150 is capable based on payload capacity, options, cargo, etc.) and the tongue weight was 10% of trailer weight with a Class IV receiver hitch UNLESS the weight is causing a undesirable drop at the rear of the tow vehicle OR  the tongue weight was greater than 10%. Remember, the WD hitch transfers some of that weight back onto the frame of the trailer which adds weight to the axle of the trailer REDUCING the CCC (cargo carrying capacity) of the trailer. Which means that there are a lot of RV's being sold that have marginal CCC to begin with and you push the limits of exceeding the CCC before using a WD hitch. It's imperative when shopping for an RV that you look at the label on the RV and understand those numbers. If you tell a salesman that you have X vehicle and ask if you can tow it safely, the answer will almost always be yes, I have several other customers doing it. After all, if you have to buy a properly equipped vehicle to safely tow what he (or she) is selling that is one sale they likely will not get. Yes, there are honest educated salespeople in the RV industry but unfortunately they are a very small minority.  

The danger in towing a trailer that is not level (one of the main reasons for a WD hitch, helper springs, or airbags) is that not only do you have the issues of the tongue/trailer hitch being too low to the ground, but the vehicle not sitting level which affects the weight distribution by axle (and vehicle handling), but it also loads the front axle of a multiple axle trailer; possibly beyond the weight limit of the axle. It is also likely that when this happens it could exceed the weight limit of the tires, if not it certainly affects the tire temperatures and tire life. 

I agree it would be great if FMC published a straight forward number for tongue weight with a Class IV receiver but It is because of the liability exposure to FMC they don't. Some Manufacturers (IE FCA and Jeep Pickups) may, because they have limited options that affect the payload capacity or other features that limit this by design? I am not a Design Engineer, an attorney, or a marketing specialist so unfortunately I am not able to answer.

I am attaching a link to a webpage that explains the SAE J2807 Towing Specifications outline, I would buy a copy of the document but it is not worth $85.00 and in addition I couldn't attach it if I did as it would be a document licensed for personal use. It will be nice when ALL manufactures adhere to the J2807 testing methods for towing but it could be years before that happens. 

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/towing/1502-sae-j2807-tow-tests-the-standard

When it comes to towing safely (which to me includes reasonable highway speeds IE 65 MPH MAX for me), I am a huge advocate of never having a marginal and/or undersized tow vehicle. Personally, I would never tow  a trailer of any type with a vehicle that didn't have a complete frame under it, more than adequate power, and properly equipped with all of the desired (and required safety equipment). There is not a NuCamp trailer that you can't tow safely with a "properly equipped 1/2 ton pickup" of any brand. 

Food for thought (and I this is not meant as a poke to anyone), which vehicle do you think is better equipped and safer to tow a TAB 400; a Honda Ridgeline or a Ford F-150? 

Sorry for the long rant, just trying to clear up some confusion (maybe on my part, LOL).

Brad

Denny16

I agree a F-150 or other full size truck is better equity tow a trailer from TaB400 and up.  For a smaller trailer like the TaG or 320, a smaller size truck should be fine.
Whilst the new 2021 Doge Dakota and Jeep Gladiator truck are listed as mid size trucks, they are actually small 1/2-ton trucks capacity wise, and were designed for towing loads up to 6000-7000 lbs, with tongue weights up to 600/700 lbs depending on the truck options.  So they would be fine for a RV like a TaB400 or Winne Mini Micro trailers.  

Anything larger, and I would want a full size truck, for the extra mass and weight ratio, full size trucks offer, along with larger engine options.  My Jeep Gladiator with MaxTow rear springs/shocks does very well pulling our 2018 TaB 400 anywhere we want to go, and can haul my 3000 lbs tractor as required.

All of your previously posted references do not list max tongue weight, just trailer weight.  One chart showed the larger trailer loads, being 5th wheel rigs.  The Ford chart referenced shows 500 lbs limit with out a WDH.
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021717/uploads/editor/qx/otmdc8xpot2t.jpg

As for a TaB 400, there are several F-150s I have seen towing a TaB 400, no sag, and seem to be OK, especially a new 2021 TaB 400 whose loaded tongue   weight shouted below 500 lbs.  As for tongue weight exceeding 500 lbs on a TaB 400, those owners need to reevaluate how and what they are loading into the TaB.  I have a 2018 TaB 400, and loaded, with full propane tanks my tongue weight is around 450-460 lbs as measured by my local trailer service shop.

So a Ford F-150 towing a TaB 400, especially the new 2021 model, should be well within the specs of the truck without a WDH.  Tongue weight is supposed to be loaded at 10-15% of trailer weight.  A standard TaB limit is 3500 lbs, 15% of that is 525lbs.  This is still a bit high, but this is the max your tongue weight should be, and the extra 25lbs should not be an issue withnthe a Ford truck.  

Personally, I would keep the tongue weight at or below 500 lbs on the older TaB400s, something in the 450+/- is a better goal for a good tongue weight.
cheers

Dutch061

Denny16 said:

All of,your references do not list max tongue weight, just trailer weight.  One charge showed the larger trailer loads, being 5th wheel rigs.  The Ford chart referenced shows 500 lbs limit with out a WDH.
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021717/uploads/editor/qx/otmdc8xpot2t.jpg

@denny16, there isn't a maximum tongue weight listed for the Class IV receiver hitch other than the "blanket 500 Lbs." for the reasons I have stated now more than once. I believe that you are using a Jeep pickup to pull your TAB 400 and there is no way you will ever convince me that your Jeep has a higher tongue weight capacity or trailer towing capacity than a F-150. The "published tongue weight may be higher" (compared to 500 Lbs.) possibly due to limited options that can affect the payload of your truck, I can't answer that. Obviously the Jeep has the capability to handle your TAB 400 within it's limits of both tongue weight and trailer weight - frontal area and you are satisfied with how it performs for you, which is great! I'm very happy for you. 

I'm sorry, I am not trying to create an argument with you not anyone else. I am trying to get everyone to understand that the "500 Lbs. maximum tongue weight" for a Class IV receiver hitch on a F-150 is not the actual number. The number varies based on all of the things I have said previously. FMC doesn't publish an actual number because of this, and I suspect to cover themselves they instead publish a blanket number or the marketing person doesn't have a clue. Wait, marketing person not having a clue; that isn't possible is it? LOL

If we were to poll the number of forum members using a Ford Ranger to tow a TAB 400 it would be a relatively  high number. The max trailer weight with a Ranger is 7500 Lbs., FMC doesn't publish a Maximum Tongue weight for the Class IV receiver hitch on those either. I can tell you that the payload of a Ranger is less than 1/2 of most F-150's. So, if everyone who has a F-150 is "suspect being over tongue weight for a Class IV receiver hitch (using 500 Lbs.), then I can assure you that EVERY Ranger owner is way over". Which goes back to the simple fact that 500 Lbs. maximum tongue weight isn't the correct number. 

For another comparison, look at the number of people using a Toyota Tacoma to pull a TAB 400. Is it possible that a Toyota Tacoma has a higher tongue weight limit than a true 1/2 ton F-150? My answer would be not likely. 

Once again, I am not trying to isolate any group of people for what they are using for a tow vehicle, I am merely using other brands for a relationship comparison; nothing more. I could add more vehicles but it is pointless. 

Does any of this make sense to anyone other than myself or do I have myself so far down a rabbit hole that I can't see the sky anymore?

Brad 

kmulh

Here's a PDF from Ford with complete, easy to read, information on payload and towing specs.

 https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content/dam/brand_ford/en_us/brand/resources/general/pdf/guides/20Towing_Ford_F150_Oct15.pdf

Denny16

@Dutch06, Brad, I agree with you, the 500lbs limit on a F-150 with a receiver is not realistic, perhaps Ford is just being super conservative?  A F-150 should be able to handle tongue weights much higher that 500 lbs with the factory tow package and receiver installed.  As I previously noted, a F-150 should be more than adequate for a TaB400.  There is no reason a TaB400 tongue weight should exceed 550 lbs anyway.  So all is good. 
cheers

m_lewis

Dutch061 said:

Food for thought (and I this is not meant as a poke to anyone), which vehicle do you think is better equipped and safer to tow a TAB 400; a Honda Ridgeline or a Ford F-150? 

Brad

Brad, that is indeed the question I want to answer. Not so much a Honda, but a BMW X3. It's towing capacity and tongue weight limit seems awfully close to Ford's specs for an F-150. I want to know whether I am at a greater risk with the X3 and, so far, I am not seeing much of a difference pulling our T@B 400 BDL.

This problem was discussed at length on the F-150 Forum several years ago, without a general consensus being reached, although several posters were surprised to learn they had a 500 lb tongue weight limit. See https://www.f150forum.com/f82/tongue-weight-matters-not-trailer-weight-423065/index4/ for the thread.

It seems obvious that the larger vehicle would offer more capacity, stability, and therefore safety, but the specs do not confirm that. Individual owner's experiences are not of much value due to all manner of biases, yet a large enough group's would be.

One way to compare safety using a large sample size is to look at insurance rates for two different vehicles. My agent quoted me significantly lower premiums for an X3 vs an F-150 of similar cost and features. No, they are not really similar vehicles, so they are probably used somewhat differently. This only means that their per-vehicle loss experience is lower with the X3. (About the same premiums for a similar Chevrolet as the Ford.) Still, 35% lower premiums tell me the BMW is a safer vehicle. Whether or not this holds true when towing is an unanswered question.

I will be happy when that SAE test you mentioned is in standard use by all manufacturers so we consumers can make apples to apples comparisons.