dead battery - 2014 T@B 320 S

Mellow_Yellow

My first trip out in my new (to me) 320 S was a bust. If I were to post a photo, it would be a white/yellow T@B lit up by flashlights in the pitch black with a a crumpled up 2014 Little Guy awning that is going straight in the trash. 
I drove for 2 hours to get to my favourite 'basic' campsite. And when I got there, the T@B's battery was dead. I couldn't even stay and tough it out (without Alde heat) because the carbon monoxide detector chirped every 40 seconds. I drove home, dejected and unsure whether to blame myself or the battery.
Background: I got the T@B 2 months ago and have kept it in the driveway plugged into house power. I had assumed the battery would be fully charged because I've been in the trailer weekly, doing maintenance, using the power outlets, etc. throughout. There were no signs of battery problems during that time. During the first 6 years of its life, my trailer was hardly used and probably sat with a dead battery for most of it.
So many questions... Should I just replace the 7 year old battery and be done with it? Is there a way to recharge the one I have? How do I know if it will hold a charge? I've read that it should be shut off when I'm not using the trailer, which I will do from now on. 
Chalking this up to a learning experience, but ouch...

Verna

A 7 year old battery is old for a battery. Save yourself a lot of headaches and get a new battery. What kind?  There are as many opinions as there are members here, so searching may be your best option. 

I am partial to Interstate batteries bought from an Interstate dealer.  AGM batteries can stand more abuse as far as letting the charge go below 50% a few times. Depending on your electronic gadgets and budget and whether or not you Boondock, a 100ah AGM or a 150 aH AGM would get you through a weekend with no problem. 

VictoriaP

Did you have the fridge set to 12v on the drive? If so, your vehicle alternator is not capable of charging the battery with that running; some can, but many can’t.

Regardless, replace the battery. It’s extremely easy to kill a trailer battery, and yours was likely so neglected by the previous owner that it can’t be salvaged. Many people kill theirs in the first camping season, it’s almost a rite of passage. Plus, as Verna said, 7 years is old for a basic deep cycle. 

Get a decent AGM RV/marine deep cycle—less maintenance, better temperature tolerance, can withstand deep discharges better. Consider keeping a smart charger such as a NOCO Genius 10 on hand, so you can potentially restore a battery like that if you do accidentally discharge it too low. And you’ll want to either learn how to use a multimeter to check battery voltage, or set up a battery monitoring system such as the Victron Smart Shunt.

At this time of year, I wouldn’t travel without a backup source of heat. If in an electric site, a small electric heater will work, if off grid, a propane alternative like a Mr. Heater Buddy will keep you from freezing if something goes wrong with the Alde or connected systems. It’s one thing to camp without power if something goes wrong, but another entirely to be without heat. Helps to have a couple of lanterns on hand, too.

It gets better, I promise!

Bayliss

@Mellow_Yellow, definitely replace the battery, but based on your description of the trailer sitting for a very long period, you should also seriously consider checking everything mechanical on your trailer for proper operation, including tire condition (tread and sidewalls), re-packing the wheel bearings, the condition and adjustment of your brakes, the emergency brake-away switch for the trailer brakes, the glycol level in your Alde reservoir/tank (to be sure it is properly filled), propane hoses and connections, etc.

Mellow_Yellow

Thanks everyone for your technical savvy and words of encouragement! I'm getting a new battery tomorrow and will give it another go. To answer a few questions:
1) I found my 320 S at a (non-T@B) RV dealer. The previous owner traded it in a for a bigger RV. I consider it a lucky find because they don't come up for sale often. It was the first T@B the tech had ever seen. It definitely had a full safety check, including a cert for the propane system and comes with (optional) technical assistance that I paid $$ for. But when I called for help yesterday, I was not registered in their system, which added to all the drama. 
2) I drained and refilled the Alde (with Century TF-1) last weekend. Big accomplishment! I posted more on that adventure here: https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/12546/question-i-drained-the-alde-and-the-drainage-was-pink-what-does-that-mean#latest
3) I spoke to my rep at the RV dealer today and he was surprised to hear that the battery was a dud because he assumed it had been checked by the tech. He agreed that 7 years is a long time and the battery was probably neglected, so it's dead (Jim). The RV dealer will cover the cost of a new InterState battery, so I will start there and then hopefully head back to the campground tomorrow! I'll be sure to post photos

VictoriaP

Mellow_Yellow said:

3) I spoke to my rep at the RV dealer today and he was surprised to hear that the battery was a dud because he assumed it had been checked by the tech. He agreed that 7 years is a long time and the battery was probably neglected, so it's dead (Jim). The RV dealer will cover the cost of the new battery and so I'm hoping to get an Optima Bluetop tomorrow - recommended here: https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/12563/new-battery#latest - and head back to the campground! I'll be sure to post photos

I adore Optimas...as car batteries. At 55 or 75 amp hours, the cost versus capacity ratio isn’t worth it as an RV battery. It is not at all adequate for boondocking, in my opinion. You can get a MUCH bigger capacity AGM for the same money.

Only half of your capacity is usable. I would never buy a battery with less than 100 ah for a Tab.

Mellow_Yellow

thanks @VictoriaP - the RV dealer will cover the cost of an InterState battery, so I'll go with that instead of the Optima. (I edited my post accordingly)

pthomas745

A battery is a living, breathing, chemical being. It needs care and attention, just like one of those nano pets from back in the day.  If you neglect it, ignore its needs, or abuse it.....it will give up.  And, they can break, or fail, even with excellent care. Batteries have a finite number of "cycles", or the number of times it is drawn down and then charged back up.  They can handle some "deep discharges", but too many will shorten the batteries' life.

Since the trailer is new to you, there is no possible way for you to know how this battery was treated by the previous owner, or the dealer.  So, give yourself a break on this battery, since there was no real way for you to know.  What misled you was leaving it plugged in, and expecting it to be healthy.  A good driveway test would be to unplug the trailer, see how things work, and see if the battery was actually holding a charge.

Your new batteries' best friend would be something to monitor it with.  An autoranging multimeter would be an excellent thing to know how to use.  I know it sounds like impossible Einsteinian Newtonian Rocket Science, but it is very simple to learn how.  (I learned how, so can you!)  You will be able to see exactly how your battery is doing. No guesswork, hoping, expecting.   So, maybe you can get seven years out of your next battery.

VictoriaP

Mellow_Yellow said:

thanks @VictoriaP - the RV dealer will cover the cost of an InterState battery, so I'll go with that instead of the Optima. (I edited my post accordingly)

Good start! But you need the stats of what they intend to install. Must be AGM (no need to add water), must be deep cycle, must have at least 100 amp hours. Interstate makes lots of batteries. Not all are suitable.  

Mellow_Yellow

Good points @VictoriaP : the current battery is an InterState SRM-24, apparently from July 2019. This list indicates it is a "wet" battery:
https://www.interstatebatteries.com/recreation-vehicles/rv-batteries/deep-cycle#
Does that mean it's not an AGM? 
Would this be a better choice? https://islandbatteries.com/product/lifeline-agm-gpl-24t/

VictoriaP

So, if the battery date is 2019, they did put a new battery on it. It may have been defective, may have been drained too many times while on the lot, or as I mentioned before, you may have had more load on it than your alternator could supply. Or any combination of the above.

But that Interstate doesn’t appear to be AGM, no, so it also may have needed water. Dried up battery cells are a common way to kill a normal lead acid battery. What you have is a very standard type of basic group 24 battery your average dealer puts into a Tab...which is not adequate for most people. And the second battery you listed isn’t showing any stats that tell you anything at all about what you’re getting, at least not on my iPad.

Let’s run through this a bit: Are you choosing/installing the battery and being reimbursed, or is your dealer installing it? If the dealer installs, they have a limited brand choice and limited models available within that brand in stock. I simply asked mine for a group 27, AGM, deep cycle, minimum 100 amp hours capacity at the 20hr rate, and to comfirm brand and model with me prior to install. That got me a Fullriver DC105-12, which after 5 minutes with Google I confirmed fit all my requirements. (Group 27 WILL fit your tub, it may or may not fit your battery box or battery tray if that’s what’s installed on yours, you’ll need to measure. It’s also the smallest single battery size I’d put into a 320 unless you literally never camp without hookups, because again, capacity. A group 31 *may* fit but the battery mount will definitely need modification;  measure your tub carefully first buying one of those.)

If you’re buying it yourself and they’re reimbursing, you have a LOT more choices. If you have a Batteries + Bulbs store in your area, they’d be my first choice to contact as they usually have lots of options. If not, pick your favorite local car parts shop. Either way, I’d call them up and provide the same details I listed above, plus the fact that you’re looking for an RV/Marine deep cycle AGM, not a starting battery.

With batteries, it’s usually pretty easy to confirm you’re getting what you’re paying for, because the label on top should tell you everything you need to know, and if it doesn’t, the manufacturer’s website should. If not, do not buy that battery.Using my Fullriver as an example: https://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/dc105-12/ You can see on that page it says deep cycle AGM, and lists capacity as 105 hours at the 20 hour rate.

This is the kind of measure twice, cut once decision where I would not rush through it to get back to the campsite tomorrow if you have to buy the battery yourself and be reimbursed, I’d take the time to make sure I got it right. Putting the wrong battery setup in there will be the difference between having just one night before you need to charge and being able to stay for 3-4 days, and installing the wrong one will cost you more in the long run than getting it right now.

Additionally, I wouldn’t plan on boondocking immediately on that new battery anyway. It’s very likely to come with only a partial charge, and will need full charging before you can depend on it for boondocking. Fully charging a deep cycle takes time. If you do not have solar on the trailer, and do not know absolutely for certain that your alternator can fully charge that battery within your two hour drive (doubtful), you need a site with electric hookups if you’re heading straight to camp after install. 

pthomas745

Those pretty batteries cost way too much.

Same specs, half the price. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00S1RT58C/?coliid=I2067L1222PJQW&colid=3DJSJON9VK2CS&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

VictoriaP

pthomas745 said:

Those pretty batteries cost way too much.

Same specs, half the price. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00S1RT58C/?coliid=I2067L1222PJQW&colid=3DJSJON9VK2CS&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Yep, lots of options out there. Mine was just an example of what to look for, dealer included with the trailer. 

Mellow_Yellow

Hi @VictoriaP and thanks again - I will track down a suitable battery with the specs you provided. I'd rather have the "best, most reliable and easily maintainable" battery than a "free" battery and it sounds like the AGM is the way to go. Considering yesterday's gong show, I'll just give the receipt to the RV dealer and ask them to cover it.
And yes, I'll cool my jets about going camping tomorrow. 
@pthomas745 - up here in Canada, the exchange rate is currently $1.22 and they usually round up to an average of $1.30, so any prices you see in Cdn $ are roughly 1.5x (the numeric value) of what you'd pay in the US, partly exchange rate, partly duties on US manufactured goods. Typically, we have less selection and pay more (not a complaint, just facts).

Mellow_Yellow

@VictoriaP - my local 'bulbs and batteries' store has this to offer:
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-nautilus-extreme-agm-group-size-27-battery-0102796p.html#srp
It only has "92 amp hours". Is that enough?
And, how do I charge it? Does plugging the RV into house power charge the battery?

VictoriaP

Mellow_Yellow said:

@VictoriaP - my local 'bulbs and batteries' store has this to offer:
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-nautilus-extreme-agm-group-size-27-battery-0102796p.html#srp
It only has "92 amp hours". Is that enough?
And, how do I charge it? Does plugging the RV into house power charge the battery?

First, confirm your actual battery box can hold a group 27. It may be labeled, or you may need to measure and compare to the battery measurements. Different Tab model years have different configurations in the tub for battery mounts, so I can’t tell you if yours will work without reconfiguring things.

If the box is big enough, there are group 27 AGMs with higher capacity than this battery, so I’d look for something bigger. If not, then either you’ll need to change the box (possibly modding the battery tray mount beneath), or if you can’t/don’t want to do that, go with the highest capacity group 24 you can find. 

Edit: and yes, plugging the trailer in *should* charge the battery. But again, you really need a multimeter or battery monitor to actually confirm that. Given that we don’t know for certain why your battery died despite being plugged in so much since you brought the trailer home? I’d say you need to figure out how you’re going to monitor charging. We simply don’t know if your converter charged that battery.

Mellow_Yellow

To add: I won't be running an air conditioner, microwave, or television, so perhaps 92 amp hours will be adequate. I'll check the box measurements tomorrow and see what other AGMs I can find locally. 

ScottG

@Mellow_Yellow, you can't run your air conditioner or microwave off your battery anyway, so those appliances will not impact your battery capacity in any way. What you actually "need" will be determined by several factors unique to your own situation.

I camped my first season with the cheap group 24 wet cell that came with the T@B. Sure, the battery was toast by September, but by then I knew what I was doing and could upgrade appropriately the next spring. (Which incidentally was to a slightly larger cheap wet cell and a 100W solar panel--both of which have continued to serve me well for the last five years.)

Your comments suggest you may be facing the same learning curve I was. You can throw good money at a high-end battery and fancy monitoring equipment, but chances are you are going to ruin it in short order regardless.

Batteries are a hot topic here, and opinions vary. Here's my $0.02... take the free battery your dealer is offering as a replacement. Consider it a low-risk opportunity to learn how your camper works and what your particular needs are. Even if you kill this one as well, you will be much better positioned to decide on an upgrade. Good luck!

ontheroad

@Mellow_Yellow..while you're at Canadian Tire pick up a "cigarette lighter style" battery monitor..only around 19.00 CDN... it's what we started with..somewhere in this forum there is a chart that talks about "state of charge"... I'm on the wrong device to attach it..maybe @Sharon_is_SAM or @verna can post it for me..those two items were how we didn't "fry our first battery"...understanding how, what and why your battery works is so important... I'm still learning as we've decided to try some overnighting without hookups...eventually wanting to "off grid"...as your part of our country is on my bucket list!

pthomas745

Other battery info sources.

Jenn Grover's blog:  a multiple Tab owner with some good hints on battery management.

https://jenngrover.com/guilty-as-charged-rv-battery-use-management/

A "Battery FAQ". Looks intimidating, but written plainly and tries to keep things simple.  A solid reference source when a thread crosses over into jargon.  Good info on battery charging/battery types/battery sizes/what batteries are made of.   Book mark it and use it for a reference.

https://www.solar-electric.com/learning-center/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html

Sharon_is_SAM

@ontheroad - here is the SOC charts.  One for regular lead acid and one for AGM.  There is one for Lithium, but not sure which is correct, so I will leave that to the lithium battery owners.

Mellow_Yellow

You guys are fabulous! Such a steep learning curve. But probably best to learn about dead batteries when I'm close to home. I live on Vancouver Island and if I'd been off island and not able to easily return home (via 1.5 hour ferry), this would have been a much larger pain in the butt.
Turns out, the current wet battery is only 1.5 years old (07/2019) but it has still been sitting most of that time and has questionable history. 
Good ol' Canadian Tire I'll be picking up a "group 27 AGM deep cycle battery" and a battery monitor today. I expect the RV dealer will cover some/all of the cost. 
Next steps: install the new battery and battery monitor, get the wireless app running, charge the new battery off house power and then do a trial 'boondock' in the driveway, fridge and Alde running to see how the charge holds. Fingers crossed that the converter is ok!

Mellow_Yellow

pthomas745 said:

Other battery info sources.

Jenn Grover's blog:  a multiple Tab owner with some good hints on battery management.

https://jenngrover.com/guilty-as-charged-rv-battery-use-management/

@pthomas745 . There is so much good information and lessons learned in this article. Looks like one of my mistakes was running the fridge on battery while enroute. What is the best way to keep food cold while travelling? I assumed the propane should only be used when stationary.

VictoriaP

Mellow_Yellow said:

pthomas745 said:

Other battery info sources.

Jenn Grover's blog:  a multiple Tab owner with some good hints on battery management.

https://jenngrover.com/guilty-as-charged-rv-battery-use-management/

@pthomas745 . There is so much good information and lessons learned in this article. Looks like one of my mistakes was running the fridge on battery while enroute. What is the best way to keep food cold while travelling? I assumed the propane should only be used when stationary.

For a two hour trip in your area at this time of year? Just load the fridge and turn it on when you get to camp. The fridge then acts as a cooler. Just took the garbage out to the south of you in western WA and it’s 35° out there! Food is in zero danger at that temp.

In warmer temps, you can pre-cool the fridge on electric at home, and add ice packs to the fridge when you load.

in *really* warm temps or on longer drives, even ice might not be enough. At that point, you have a few options: food in traditional cooler with ice in the car (where temps are better regulated), 12v cooler in either car or trailer (these are WAY more efficient than your three way fridge, but still work better in lower ambient temps, so car is your best bet), install permanent solar on the trailer so you can compensate for the use of the fridge on 12v while in transit (might need more than the typical 100 watts, given your location), or have a DC to DC charger installed on your car to boost the charge from the vehicle alternator to the trailer.

I opted for the 12v cooler recently, as parts + labor for getting the DC to DC installed was around the same price as a mid priced 12v fridge/freezer. Previously, I did the trad cooler in the car or ice packs in the fridge methods.

pthomas745

@Mellow_Yellow, Jenn's page taught me so much.  One of the things I found there was the "power spreadsheet" where the power use of the various items in the trailer were laid out in spreadsheet form. I learned the trailer has "drains" that are always using battery power, about 4 amp hours per day.  The trailer's LED lights used hardly any power at all.  The fan, run on high power, used about 2 amps per hour, etc.

The biggest power use, I discovered, was the fridge in my trailer on 12V (that is, battery power).  It uses 13 amps per hour!  My car can barely keep up with that power output.  Luckily, I have a "3 way fridge" in my 2017, which means it works on shore power, battery, or propane.  Using the advice from VictoriaP above, I precool my fridge at home on shore power, put some frozen bottles inside the fridge, and my things stay cold until I get to the campsite.  Then, I run it on propane.  Some owners will tell you their 3 way fridge works fine on 12v power driving down the road. 

So, the important thing for you to look at inside your trailer is the exact model of fridge you have. There are so many different models of fridge in these trailers now, and to get advice on the power use in yours, you must make sure you are comparing the same fridges.  Hearing about a 2021 fridge's power use will not be a good comparison.  Here is my copy of Jenn's original spreadsheet (I'm not sure if those fridge numbers at the top are accurate, however. Find your model of fridge and we can help you find the manual.)

Mellow_Yellow

Many thanks @pthomas745 and @VictoriaP
Going forward, I'm going to skip the 'battery' setting on the fridge altogether and will opt for pre-cooling on electric + ice packs for travel time to the campsite.
I also installed a set of D cell battery-powered fairy lights I already had and will use that and a rechargeable mini lantern for lighting while boondocking. So my only active 'dry camping' draw will be the Alde and FFan, as needed.
I'll be hooking up the new AGM battery with a manual on/off switch and a basic wireless battery monitor. I'll post an update when it's all functional. 

Tampakayaker

I got a single set of these, the solar panel lifts off the ground stake so you could put these outside to charge then move inside, plus the lead between the panel and the beginning of the lamps is pretty long if you wanted to leave the lights inside with the panel outside.  And the panel is only about 2 or 3 inches square.

https://www.amazon.com/Powered-Copper-Outdoor-Waterproof-Christmas/dp/B088GRWYVS/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=16PB69JD69DD5&dchild=1&keywords=solar+fairy+lights+outdoor&qid=1609943041&sprefix=solar+fairy+light,aps,281&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExRlE4WUhNQUhIOUxOJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjQ0NjkxMlM1VEhKMDlCM1lGQiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzE4MDQ3M1JMME9MWkVMMlFXRSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Mellow_Yellow

Update: I decided not to install the AGM and let the RV dealer figure out the battery issues with the used 2014 T@B 320 S they sold me.  They did a battery test and as it turns out, the battery was only 1.5 years old but that one of the cells was dead. So they replaced the battery under warranty. I was definitely blaming myself for the dead battery and you can imagine my relief to learn that the battery was at fault
In parallel and because I mostly camp without electricity, I decided to go for a 12V 100 Ah lithium from a Canadian source: https://www.lynaclithium.com/product/12-8v-100ah-true-series-low-temp/
I'll be using it with an external charger, battery tender and manual on/off switch. 
I'm going to sell the brand new wet cell battery and hopefully recoup some of my costs.