Alde 3020 - heat only from bed vents

Denny16

In the TaB400, only manual bleed valve is in the washroom heater, on top, from what I have read.  Also you should see movement in the expansion tank, the level moving slightly up and down, this indicates the pump/pumps are working.
cheers

Bayliss

@lisadbricker, I am not familiar with the specific layout of the metal convectors and vent locations on a 400, but since nobody has mentioned it yet, are you sure that nothing is preventing air flow around the metal convector fins in the area(s) that are not heating?  Proper operation of the Alde convectors is dependent upon good air flow under, over and up from the fins.  Sometimes, items (e.g., bedding, clothing, towels, storage containers, etc.) are stored in or around the convector areas, which can restrict proper air flow.  If you have any carpeting or other floor mats on the floor, make sure those are not blocking any Alde air vents.  Think back and try to recall if you have done anything different as far as storing items in those areas since the Alde was last heating properly.  Good luck!

Denny16

@Bayliss, I posted a diagram showing the Alde heating elements in the TaB400 on the previous page.  The main heating radiator in the front is under the dinette table, which is easy to check for heat from the top vent holes in the cover, shown below:

Cold air is draw in at the bottom slot, and heated then hot air comes out the slots on the top, next to the front wall.  There are also heating elements under the round port hole windows, all of which are not likely to be blocked.  Also heat come up from the back of the galley counter.
cheers

Bayliss

Thanks @Denny16.  I noticed the drawing, which is helpful for the convector locations, but I was not familiar with the air flow around them.  The photo is helpful in understanding the flow for the dinette area, so I appreciate seeing it for my general info.

Denny16

You are welcome Greg.  The TaB400 heating element areas are easy to see in the dinette and washroom, the galley area is a little more obscure, as is the one in the back under the main bunk.  Here is a shot taken during assembling a TaB400 showing the back of the galley area and the Alda heating unit:

You can see the Alde heating element sticking up from the middle on the right side, between the fridge and sink area.  Air is drawn in from under the center part of the galley, up the back past the heating element and comes out between the side wall and galley counter.  Older models had an open slot with a aluminum angle bat in front of it.  The new 2021 model has a screen over the slot, to keep small objects from falling in behind.
cheers

Katydid

@lisadbricker When I was having a heating problem, Alde had me set the circulation pump on 5 for 5 minutes and then return it to 2 1/2 . Keeping an eye on the glycol expansion tank while it was set on 5 for turbulence indicating it was starting to work properly. He mentioned that air getting into the tubing is a common issue.

Katydid

He also said circ pump mode should be on therm except when troubleshooting then use cont.

lisadbricker

Thanks for that suggestion @Katydid. We tried it, but no movement in the glycol tank at all. And now we don’t seem to even be getting heat from the rear vent behind the bed area. The Alde compartment is plenty warm, but there is no heat anywhere beyond that. I guess we’ll have to take it somewhere and have someone look at it? Unfortunately, we purchased our T@B from a dealer in Portland, OR but we live in Southern CA.😕 I really appreciate everyone’s helpful suggestions while we try to figure this out. 

Katydid

@lisadbricker You might want to try calling Alde . I found them to be very helpful, taking the time to walk me through all the steps.

Denny16

Sounds like the pump may have failed.  You should be able to contact a nüCamp dealer near you in SoCal, since your TaB is still undear warranty.
cheers

lisadbricker

If the pump has failed would it still vibrate/whir? And it definitely sped up (at least by the change in sound) when I increased the speed from 2 to 5 per Katydid’s suggestion. Is there any way to confirm that it’s the pump that isn’t working?

Sharon_is_SAM

@AmyS and @lisadbricker - here is another thread that may help.  https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/11875/alde-t-b-400-2019-not-circulating-heat

@lisadbricker - are you manually adjusting the pump as the Alde panel does not control the pump speed in the TaBs.  And, if you use the bleeder screw, make sure you turn off the pump.  Otherwise you can entrain more air into the system.
There is a symbol in the upper left corner of the Alde display that indicates if the pump is set to turn on.  It does not change when the pump actually runs.  I think to turn the pump off you must do it manually under the bed.

Sounds like you have a large air lock.  Have you done this?  Someone recently had success by lowering the tongue for a longer time than suggested.  He really gave it time for the air to move.

• PERSISTENT AIR LOCK

If air lock persists, try the following:

Single-axle trailers:

1. Stop the circulation pump.

2. Lower the front of the trailer as far as possible. Leave it in this position for a few minutes to allow the air to travel

upward in the heating system.

3. Open the bleeder screw at the highest point. Leave it open until it discharges glycol fluid.

4. Raise the front of the trailer as far as possible and repeat the procedure in this position.

5. Position the trailer horizontally and start the circulation pump.

6. Check that the pipes and convectors around the vehicle are heating up.

lisadbricker

Thank you, @Sharon_is_SAM. Yes, I changed the pump speed temporarily on the pump itself under the bed. I didn’t see any on/off, only a small red dial for speed. Maybe off would be to turn the dial all the way to zero? But to open the bleed screw I turned the whole system off to be sure the pump wasn’t running. Not that it’s circulating glycol anyway. 

I will try lowering the tongue for longer. Right now the camp spot we’re in doesn’t allow us to lower the tongue much at all, but we leave today so we can try it later. I did see those directions to help manually bleed the lines. I’m just not sure why we’d get air in our system when we have the automatic bleeder?? Did something go wrong with that? And how would we check?

I’m wondering if @AmyS ever solved her problem, since it sounded so similar to ours. Our problem definitely wasn’t propane related, though. 

Sharon_is_SAM

Someone mentioned that air can enter via the air exhaust tubing connected to the brass flow assembly that contains the auto air bleeder.  The flow assembly seems to be the Alde weak link.  It has a one way valve that is supposed to let air escape and then close to prevent loss of glycol.  Multiple owners have had this part replaced because the valve gets stuck open which then results in a loss of glycol.  I guess if it got stuck in the closed position, you could end up with an air lock.  One of the Alde reps said to take your shoe and give it a good whack to try and get the valve to close.  It may not help, but you may feel better for trying.  

We had our flow assembly changed in 2019 due to loss of glycol.

AmyS

Hi everyone I have not solved my problem yet @lisadbricker sorry you’re having this issue too.

I had to take a family member to the emergency room and have been at the hospital daily. To be honest I was so exhausted when I got home I didn’t have the capacity to deal with it. 

She’s out and I’m back to my trailer now. It’s actually pretty nice outside so I’m gonna try while it’s still light powering off the Allde, turning off the propane unplugging it from shore power and turning off the battery. I’ll take a walk I suggested actually I’ll go pick up dinner come back turn everything back on and open the propane very slowly and see if that works. If not I’ll start tomorrow with another of the suggestions. 

It’s going to be a nice day tomorrow then slowly it’s going to get very cold again over the next few days and may snow ❄️ 

Bayliss

@lisadbricker, it sounds like it is time to call Alde and see if they can help troubleshoot the issue.

AirBoss

I was just speaking with an Alde certified repair shop (who was working on my rig on another matter) and he mentioned this does sound like an air issue.

He recommending what was being discussed here. Turn pump speed up to at least 4, toggle pump to Circulate on the control panel and begin manual bleeding. 

He also offered the following BEFORE you bleed...go into the bath and unsnap the protecting plastic cover over the radiator located just below the shower faucet panel. It has four snaps holding it in place. They are pretty hard to unsnap and will make a sharp noise when you do. Be careful. Now, the radiator coil itself can be lowered from top so that it lays flat on the shower floor. This is how you configure this radiator when bleeding. They've used this method many times and he indicated it has worked virtually every time. 

Hope it helps...if it doesn't please don't shoot the messenger!

lisadbricker

Thank you so much, @AirBoss! We returned from JT last night and parked the T@B in its storage spot with its tongue lowered. Also gave the autobleeder a “tap” to unstick/open the valve (if that happens to be the issue per a previous suggestion). I’ll go back tomorrow and level the trailer and see if that worked the air out of the system. If it didn’t I will try the suggestion above. When we opened that bathroom bleed screw the other day we only removed the grate on top of the radiator. It didn’t seem as though the rest of that unit was meant to open, but knowing it has really tough snaps makes sense! I really appreciate all the help here. You guys are amazing. 😊

Sharon_is_SAM

@AirBoss - do you mean toggle the pump to “Continuous”?  I can’t find the circulate mode in the Alde 3020 manual.

lisadbricker

I guess I also need clarification about the bleeding process. Should the pump speed be at 4 and continuous circulate at the same time that you open the bleed screw? I’ve seen conflicting advice on this, that the pump should NOT be on when you open the bleed screw. I really don’t want to cause more problems than there already are by doing things incorrectly. 

TAOSMAC

We have a 2021 400 Boondock with the same issues. The Alde worked the first two months. Late summer we experienced two major snow storms in Colorado. The Alde was only heating the rear of the trailer and eventually rear heating stopped working also. I discussed the issue with T@B and Alde. They recommended lowering the front and rear of the 400 as well as bleeding the valve in the bathroom. T@B said there was only one valve to bleed, but I found another below the kitchen sink. I tried this process multiple times and Alde only got worse. I finally took the 400 to the dealer to troubleshoot the issue. They told me one of the pumps was not working and the glycol lines were all caked up with a white stuff. They cleaned out the lines, replaced the glycol and the pump. They also tested the Alde and they tell me it’s working again. I’m picking up the 400 next week and I’ll test the Alde over a number of cold nights. 

TAOSMAC

I just noticed on the home page that T@B is changing the gylcol product installed in new trailers. Maybe the Alde issues are related to the gylcol that used previously. 

AirBoss

Sharon_is_SAM said:

@AirBoss - do you mean toggle the pump to “Continuous”?  I can’t find the circulate mode in the Alde 3020 manual.

Yes, Continuous! My bad...apologies for the confusion! 

Verna

@TAOSMAC, please read the bulletin about the new glycol. It is not meant for for any existing Alde’s. It is only for new ones. Existing T@B’s will continue to use the Century glycol we’ve used since the Alde’s were first installed in the early T@B with Alde model years.

lisadbricker

@TAOSMAC that’s very depressing and I hope not what’s wrong with our Alde. I’m really hoping it’s just an airlock that we can successfully deal with ourselves.🤞🏻It did seem like the pumps were both working, they both would vibrate/whir when activated, and I was able to increase the speed on them (judging by the change in sound when I turned up the dial). I am assuming that means they’re working, but I guess they could be “turning on” without actually pumping the glycol?

@AmyS I’m sorry about your family member and glad she’s out of the hospital. Were you able to get your heat to work after powering down/rebooting? I’m also curious, did your heat work when you were connected to shore power?

TAOSMAC

I also went through the troubleshooting process of temporarily increasing the pump speed per Alde recommendation to push the air out of the lines. Again, I tried this multiple times with no success. I thought both of my pumps were working and I was surprised when the dealer said one of the pumps was not. 

My 400 Factory warranty expires May 2021. If you are still under warranty, I believe you are required to notify the dealer when you have a system or product failure. The Alde failure to heat the 400 is clearly NuCamps and Alde’s problem. As owners, we should not have pull our trailer apart to troubleshoot complex mechanical and thermodynamic issues. I spent at least 60 nights in the Rocky Mountains last year and 90% of the time the Alde was not heating properly. In addition, I wasted countless days troubleshooting the Alde. Clearly I am not the only one with Alde issues and NuCamp/Alde needs to step up and issue a recall to repair or replace their systems.
My comment regarding the recent glycol bulletin on new T@B’s makes me wonder if the previous glycol fluid used may be defective.

AirBoss

@TAOSMAC

FWIW, nuCamp has a process for dealing with these issues (either in isolated cases or more broadly) and a history of doing so that from my experience in the RV and boating world, is one of the best in the industry. Whether or not this rises to the level of a recall is another matter. 

Is it an inconvenience. Yes. Will it limit your ability to use the rig as intended? Yes, for a period of time. That is an unavoidable fact. 

Hope this is in your rear-view mirror and you can enjoy the T@B as intended very soon. Please keep this forum posted on the progress. Good luck with the repairs. 

Bayliss

This is just for general information - - - I have been wondering how it is that glycol can be circulating, which would infer that it is moving in the glycol lines throughout the trailer, yet (as described by @lisadbricker and @AmyS) there is only heat being produced in one area inside the trailer cabin.

I came across this statement in the Alde manual (at "Bleeding the System" section ):  "A sign that there is air trapped in the heating system is that the heat released into the pipes only extends 2-3 ft or so from the boiler, even though the circulator pump is operating."

Unfortunately, there is no explanation as to how that occurs.  In other words, what exactly allows the glycol to presumably circulate, yet not remain heated throughout the entire system.?  What causes it to be heated for a few feet, but it suddenly loses heat beyond that point?

Does anybody have any ideas, or possible explanation for this?

AirBoss

My guess (that and $5 will get you a Starbucks), air can enter the system at any joint or check valve, or incorrect bleeding or initial charging or recharging of the system.

I'd also guess there would be enough air in the system that the pump cannot overpower pressure. Pump runs, but it can't force glycol past the air pocket. Which I think was mentioned elsewhere in that the pump was "running" but no visible activity in the expansion tank.

Just guessing mind you...

lisadbricker

Update on our situation: I went back today and leveled the trailer (which we had parked with the tongue lowered to try to coax any air in the system to move) then tried the heat again. Nothing. 

I tried opening the radiator in the bathroom, lowering it so it was flat to the floor, and opening the bleed screw again (yes with the pump/Alde turned off) just to see one more time if I could manually bleed it. Still no heat beyond the Alde compartment itself. The pump still turns on (whirs/vibrates) and off (even though temp isn’t reached) but it is definitely not circulating the glycol through the system, so either the pump isn’t working properly or I can’t clear an airlock. At this point I’ve tried everyone’s very helpful suggestions with no success, so I guess it’s time to get some hands-on help from a professional. Would it be best to contact Alde first just to see if they have other suggestions? Should I contact NuCamp to see what they say? We are still under warranty but nowhere near the dealership where we purchased our T@B so I’m not sure how to go about getting service. Does anyone live in/near SoCal and have a dealer/service they can recommend?
Lastly, just a curious thing, the glycol that came out each time I opened the bleed screw was REALLY smelly. The new glycol in the jug that we purchased for emergency back-up doesn’t smell at all. Is it normal for the glycol in the system to be stinky? Or might that give some idea about what’s gone wrong?

Thanks again, everyone, for jumping in and trying to help solve this problem. Sorry @AmyS that I kind of hijacked your thread. Hopefully you’ve fixed your heat, and if not maybe some of the suggestions offered here will be the answer for you.