Alde 3020 - heat only from bed vents

TAOSMAC

Yesterday, I picked up my 400 from the dealer and I plan to test the Alde system ASAP. My 400 has been winterized and I read in the 2021 Owners Manual that I first need to “Confirm there is no antifreeze in the Alde Domestic Water System”. Looks like I’ll need to wait on the Alde testing until I de-winterize my 400. Because I live in the high desert and we are likely to have overnight freezing temperatures for a few more weeks, I’ll need to wait on the testing. For your information I have included a photo of the Alde system flush repair receipt. This work was completed at no cost to me under my factory warranty.



Regarding Creeds comment that lisadbricker provided above, I would like to to state the following: I purchase my 2021 T@B 400 in May 2020. I camped in my 400 many days in 2020 and used my Alde to generate hot water and for heating. The Alde distribution heating system started to fail after a month or so of use. I kept an eye on my Alde expansion tank and at no time did I add additional glycol to the tank. Assuming that NuCamp shipped my 400 to the dealer with the Alde glycol system full, I don’t think additional glycol was added.

lisadbricker

Our timeline, in case I didn’t already include it: We picked up our T@B at the end of September and used it to travel and camp quite a bit throughout October, November, and December. The Alde was a rockstar, keeping us nice and cozy for those 3 months most of which were spent in the Pacific NW. Then it sat without use at home in SoCal for the month of January. The next trip out in the beginning of February to Joshua Tree it wasn’t working from the first night. 

Denny16

The inner chamber is the combustion chamber, the second one is glycol, and the outer area is water.  So it appears, one set of elements is in the air space combustion chamber (hot air also forced in by fan from propane burner) and both electrical elements* are in the glycol area around the combustion chamber.  It really is hard to work out this illustration, but this is my best reading of it.
*Correction to previous post, see below.
cheers

BridgerSunset

Below is from the Alde website; similar pic as Denny16 showed, but a little different.  Hopefully the colors show up clearer to identify the 3 concentric chambers.



Blue is the water occupying the space between the middle & outside chamber walls.  Purple is the glycol bath occupying the space between the innermost (combustion) chamber & the middle chamber.
What it looks like to me is this:  the closest electric element (the three-loop one) would actually be immersed in the purple, but it's not obvious looking at the diagram.  But if you visualized the inner chamber (the combustion chamber) wall continuing to wrap around - not cut away as in the diagram, you'll note that the nearest electric element is actually attached outside where that wall would be.

In other words, the combustion chamber would have no electric elements in it - it is strictly a chamber where the gas burner fires in the upper half, and the flue gases exhaust out the bottom of it, below that shroud.  So both sets of electric elements are immersed in glycol.   Hence each 1 kW element works separately.

At least, that's what I gather....I'm trying to understand this system and I appreciate the discussion!

Sharon_is_SAM

Now I see where both elements are in the middle, glycol filled chamber.  Good pick up.

Denny16

Now that makes more sense.  The newer diagram is much clearer, thanks.
cheers

rhyno

AmyS said:

I did consult the dealer and they sent photos to Nucamp. Today it started leaking Glycol in fact I think pretty much all of it came out. There was glycol dripping outside glycol on the floor in the dinette. This happened just as I was moving out of my campsite. I’m using a small electric heater for now. 

@AmyS did you hear any updates for your Alde issue? 

TAOSMAC

This is a follow up to my Alde glycol distribution issue. I finally was able to test my Alde system after the repair work that the dealer completed. 

Overnight Test - I set my thermostat to 76 and when I woke up this morning the outdoor temperature was 37 degrees F and the indoor temperature read 56. This initial test of the Alde was a failure. The Alde boiler was clearly working, but it did not send warm glycol at least to the shower room radiator or the radiator located below the dinette. The black Alde distribution pipe going to these areas was cold to the touch. The back bed radiator seamed to be producing a little bid of warm air and the pipe going to the back was warm.

I was discouraged to say the least, but I decided  to proceed with the recommendation of turning up the speed on the two glycol distribution pumps, to try and clear any air traps or bubbles in the distribution lines. I did notice that glycol in the expansion tank started to bubble, possibly clearing out any air traps. For my next step, I shut down the Alde system and went through the process of raising the trailer for 15 minutes and lowering the trailer for 15 minutes. (Note: After both steps, I notice that the glycol level in the tank was halfway between the minimum and the maximum. Prior to the testing, the glycol level was approximately 1 inch above the maximum level. I’m guessing that the normal glycol level achieved after the steps to clear the plumbing lines is an indication that the air traps may have been cleared.) I then turned the Alde system back on with the glycol pumps still set full speed. After 15 minutes I turned the pumps down to 3.5 and after another hour, I checked the temperature (by touch) of the black glycol distribution lines (after the pump side) and they were both warm. I then felt the small exposed black piping in the bathroom radiator and it was warm as well. After the steps to clear the air traps in the Alde distribution system, it now appears to be working. We should have some colder weather again tonight, so I’ll leave the Alde system on and do another night of testing. I’ll provide another update tomorrow.

Denny16

Sounds like the dealer didn’t get all the air out of the glycol system.  Glad you got it sorted.
cheers

Horigan

@TAOSMAC, Did you crack the bleed valve at the top of the shower radiator?  Two screws at the top allow removal of the radiator cover top cap and exposes the bleed valve.  Didn't see you mention that in your last post, so just checking.

TAOSMAC

I didn’t crack the bleed valve in the shower this time, but I’ve aware of the location and cover access. I did bleed this valve multiple times last summer and fall to push the glycol air traps out. I believe the bleeding did not resolve the issue at the time because my distribution lines were clogged with white stuff. FYI there is a second bleed valve that I’ve found at the radiator below the kitchen sink.
The dealer cleaned out all Alde distribution piping and replaced the glycol. Tomorrow morning if needed, I’ll bleed the two valves.

TAOSMAC

This morning my indoor temperature read 75, while the outdoor temperature was 47 degrees F. The thermostat was set to 76. All radiators were producing warm air. The glycol level was 1/2 above minimum.  I believe the Alde performed the way it’s suppose to. 

My one remaining concern is minimal hot water at inconsistent temperatures. My hot water valve is set to maximum. I’ll turn the Alde off and bleed the hot water valve to see if I can get more hot water at a consistent temperature.
Hopefully every time I tow my 400 and change campsites, I won’t need to raise and lower the trailer and increase the pump speed to clear out any trapped air pockets.

Sharon_is_SAM

@TAOSMAC - did you see this: https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/12718/new-thermostatic-mixing-valve#latest
You need to fully adjust the mixing valve.

TAOSMAC

This weekend I was able to test the hot water system. My mixing valve was set to high and still only received lukewarm water. I lifted the inline hot water valve for a few second to make sure I had an air cushion. Still no hot water. Is the new mixing valve suppose to solve hot water issues like I’m having?

bergger

Is the water line going into the mixing valve hot and is the line coming out of the mixing valve cool? If so then your Alde is producing hot water and you need to properly adjust the mixing valve as Sharon mentioned above.  This was the case in our 2021 and as soon as I followed those directions we had very hot water.  If you have heat from the Alde and the water tank is full you should have hot water as they work together.  

My 2021 400 had the old style mixing valve.  Do you have the new one?  If so it can still be adjusted but I do not believe it requires you loosening or removing the screw in the top of the cap.  I think they got rid of that screw and it may just need to be pulled up then turned??

Verna

@TAOSMAC, while I haven’t un-winterized my 2021 to try it, I do believe you still have to loosen the middle screw, lift the black part gently towards the “+” (do not remove the black part of the valve nor the screw) to turn the heat up a bit higher. 

I think there was an upgrade to a different type of mixing valve, but not all the 2021 models got the upgrade. 

I have the valve I described to you. 

pthomas745

Here is an extremely detailed look at the Old Black Knob Mixing Valve.  The secret of the valve revealed.  Not a very intuitive device.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/5018/no-hot-water-at-kitchen-sink-bathroom-sink-had-hot-water#latest

TAOSMAC

I have the old style black mixing valve. When I turned the valve to the hottest plus setting I was only able to get lukewarm water. Unfortunately I had to take my 400 back to the storage yard for now. I’ll have another change to test the hot water next week. 

Sharon_is_SAM

TAOSMAC said:

This weekend I was able to test the hot water system. My mixing valve was set to high and still only received lukewarm water. I lifted the inline hot water valve for a few second to make sure I had an air cushion. Still no hot water. Is the new mixing valve suppose to solve hot water issues like I’m having?

@TAOSMAC - if you lifted the yellow flapper valve and released water - that water comes directly from the Alde hot water tank.  You are saying that the water directly from the tank is not hot either?  How long are you waiting before checking the water temperature?  If you are getting cabin heat, your water should also be heating.  Check your Alde Flow pump setting.  Also on the Alde display panel, make sure your circulation pump is set to Therm.

TAOSMAC

My Alde display is set to Therm. The valve that I lifted, is the yellow one on the red hot water line. I believe the pump you mentioned is the back pump (one of two Alde distribution pumps) and it is set to 3.5. 

I will not be able to complete additional tests until next week. 

Denny16

You can check the Alde display, maintenance tab, and get the actual glycol and water temp readings.  Also put a container under the trailer where the yellow tab pressure relief drain is located and get a sample of the water coming directly from the Alde heater unit.  This will let you know how hot the water in he tank actually is.  If it is hot, than your issue is the mixing valve, which regulates the hot water temp at the faucets.
cheers

Sharon_is_SAM

@Denny16 - he already checked the temperature out of the pressure relief drain and he said "Still no hot water."  We'll have to wait until next week to see what's up.

BrianO

In a 2 pump system should both pumps be set to the same value?  If so, is there a preferred value to set them at i.e. both at 2 or both at 3?   Are those values indicating a pumping volume; set at 5 is higher pump rate than 3 and 3 higher than 1?

Denny16

Brian Yes, they both should be at 2 or 3 setting for normal use.  The higher the number, the faster it pumps the glycol around.
cheers

Sharon_is_SAM

@BrianO - set both glycol pumps at the same level.  5 is the highest pump rate and is typically excessive and noisy as it gurgles in the expansion tank.  The 5 setting is typically used to evacuate air from the glycol system.  Try setting both pumps at 3.  You can adjust up or down depending on your satisfaction of heat delivery.  Keep in mind that 400 is a bigger cabin and requires a higher flow rate compared to the 320 which warms just fine set to 1.5 to 2.  

Denny16

Sharon, TAOSMAC didn’t say if he got hot water from the relief valve, he just got water.  When he said no hot water after testing the valve to get the air cushion, sounds like he didn’t have hot water at the tap.  My suggestion was merely to see if hot water came directly out of the boiler via the relief valve, catching a sample with a bucket or pan.  If you are inside releasing the valve, you can not be outside to see if it is hot, only that you have a wet spot under it, so did release water.  Yes we will need to wait and see.
cheers

Sharon_is_SAM

Sorry, this certainly sounded like he checked the water temperature out of the drain valve.  “I lifted the inline hot water valve for a few second to make sure I had an air cushion. Still no hot water. Is the new mixing valve suppose to solve hot water issues like I’m having?”

Denny16

Yes Sharon, his comment is not very clear, I can see where you can read it both ways.

That is why I posted the very specific reply.  Maybe I am miss reading this as well. 

I hope you have a grand week.
cheers

TAOSMAC

When I opened the yellow relief valve for a few seconds, I did not check the water temperature of the water being released under the trailer. I did check the temperature at the taps and the water was lukewarm. When I’m able to test the hot water system again, I’ll put a container below the trailer and test the temperature. Note: when I was testing the system I believe my Nautilus system was set for dry camping. In this mode the red handle valve is in the up position and allows the water to circulate through the Alde flow or hot water system. In the horizontal position the water bypasses the hot water system.
Before I can test the system again I discovered a new issue. With the Alde system off, glycol cold and the trailer level, the glycol level is 1.5 inches below the minimum mark on the expansion tank. I’ve have been keeping a close eye on the level because it goes up and down. From my past comments in this thread you will find that last year my Alde was not distributing hot glycol to the perimeter radiators. After a few months of trying to resolve the issue, I took my 2021 400 to the dealer and they drained the glycol and found white stuff in the fluid. They cleaned/flushed all of the distribution piping and then refilled the system with new glycol. The dealer told me they then fully tested the heating system (the hot water system/Alde flow was in the bypass position because the trailer was winterized at the time) and it worked great. When I picked up the trailer and towed it home the glycol level was above maximum.      When I finally tested the Alde system after de winterizing the distribution system was not sending hot glycol to the perimeter radiators. I then turned up the pump speed to 5 to push out any air traps. After that, I turned the Alde off and raised then lowered the trailer. The glycol level returned to normal or half way between maximum and minimum. This past weekend while camping we had temperatures as low as 27 degrees F and the Alde heating system worked great.  

My remaining issues are no hot water at the fixtures and a low glycol level. I need to find the proper glycol to add to the expansion tank and them retest the hot water system.

Denny16

Thanks TAOSMAC, for the update, and clarification of what you previously did.  Before you startup the Alde again, add more glycol to get the level about 10mm (0.5-inch) above the minimum line, per the Alde manual, this is the normal cold level, which ends up putting the level between the high/low marks when warms up.  When we had our glycol changed, it took using it a few times to get the air out and glycol level back to normal.  

Ours went down after using the system for a few days.  If you end up getting too much glycol in the expansion tanks, you can use a turkey baster to take some back out..
cheers