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Subfloor Issues - Azdel vs Luan

SystemSystem Posts: 180
edited March 2021 in Trailer & Towing
This discussion was created from comments split from: Problems with our 2021 TAB400.
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    narniaorwhatnarniaorwhat Member Posts: 15
    We have a 2021 tab 400, last summer I was entering the trailer and tripped face first and noticed some bubbling on the floor next to the dinette bench. Took it to the dealer to get it fixed just for them to lift the flooring and notice that the plywood underneath needs replacement due to being warped/splitting in order to fix the bubbling. The dealer is not comfortable doing the repair because they would have to take the entire trailer apart. After some back and forth with nucamp, they said they can take it to the factory but they wouldn’t bring it back. Does that sound reasonable? We live in Utah and that’s a huge trip to go pick it up once it’s done. The other option they offered was calling other dealers around our area to see if they could perform the repair. We only have one dealer in our area that’s an authorized nucamp seller so I’m not sure if another dealer is qualified to take our nucamp apart and assemble it back after the repair is complete. What are your thoughts and suggestions? Thank you in advance. 
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    TampakayakerTampakayaker Member Posts: 554
    I would have the factory do the work.  If it's too much of a drive, see how much nuCamp or an independent shipper would charge to send it back.  Or see if they are shipping units to your dealer or one closer to you then the factory, and get it mixed in with their shipment.
    2006 RAM 1500 4 door, 2016 T@B 320 MAX S 
    Tampa FL
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    Denny16Denny16 Member Posts: 5,445
    edited February 2021
    Previously the TaB subfloor is Azdel and a black waterproof sealing layer of material on top of that, then the Lino.  @narniaorwhat  not sure what your dealer is referring to. 
    Cheers

    2018 TaB400 Custom Boondock,  Jeep Gladiator truck, Northern California Coast.
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    narniaorwhatnarniaorwhat Member Posts: 15
    edited February 2021
    Photos deleted due to excessive size.  Moderator. 
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    narniaorwhatnarniaorwhat Member Posts: 15
    @Denny16 here are the two pics that the dealer provided us with. There’s no water barrier of any kind. Help 
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    ChrisFixChrisFix Member Posts: 725
    @narniaorwhat
    Is it possible that the material being folded back is the moisture barrier - with the finished flooring (linoleum) already folded back out of the picture frame? Hard for me to tell from the photo...
    After two years of looking and considering...finally the proud owner of a 2021 T@B 400 Boondock!
    2023 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E with Redarc Trailer Brake Controller
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    narniaorwhatnarniaorwhat Member Posts: 15
    edited February 2021
    @ChrisFix uploading another pic I just took, linoleum is sitting on top of the plywood. 

    Photos deleted due to excessive size.  Moderator. 


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    ChrisFixChrisFix Member Posts: 725
    @narniaorwhat
    Yup, no moisture barrier. Although I don't know why a moisture barrier would be needed if the floor is Azdel, and Azdel is waterproof?
    I have a 2021 also, but no idea if I have a moisture barrier under my linoleum floor.
    After two years of looking and considering...finally the proud owner of a 2021 T@B 400 Boondock!
    2023 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E with Redarc Trailer Brake Controller
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    Denny16Denny16 Member Posts: 5,445
    edited February 2021
    Yes, I agree, does not look like their is a moisture barrier on top this subfloor.
    I do not know what that material is under the floor shown above,  but it does not look like plywood to me, but is could be plywood of some sort.
    cheers
    2018 TaB400 Custom Boondock,  Jeep Gladiator truck, Northern California Coast.
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    narniaorwhatnarniaorwhat Member Posts: 15
    @Denny16 when we took it to the dealer they had to cut the linoleum in order to get access to the area of where I noticed the bubbling so that’s why you it looks like a seam. It appears that for some reason azdel floor was never installed in our trailer, which is a bit concerning. Do you know how I can get ahold of Austin? Thank you. 
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    berggerbergger Moderator Posts: 983
    edited February 2021
    This is concerning.  The floor should have no plywood in it and should be all composite.  We also have a 2021 400 and now wonder what floor we have.  Please let us know what you find out.  I also sent you a PM with Austin's email address.  
    2021 T@b 400 BD  "Vixen Gail" 
    2018 Nissan Titan Pro 4X "Big Bird"
    Leadville Colorado
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    narniaorwhatnarniaorwhat Member Posts: 15
    edited February 2021
    Here’s a photo of the area where I noticed the bubbling. The plywood pictures were taken in the area that’s right behind the bench wall, I assume the reason they did that (cut in the Lino) is so it could remain hidden until it could be addressed. 

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    Denny16Denny16 Member Posts: 5,445
    edited February 2021
    You should contact Customer Service at nüCamp, phone number is on their online site here: https://nucamprv.freshdesk.com/support/home
    cheers
    2018 TaB400 Custom Boondock,  Jeep Gladiator truck, Northern California Coast.
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    manyman297manyman297 Member Posts: 1,185
    So this should be concerning, right? The floor should be Azdel. I’ve seen more than one 2021 400 owner complaining of bubbling...is Nucamp just using plywood under the floor now? 
    2021 400 BD
    2020 Tacoma TRD Off-Road 
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    narniaorwhatnarniaorwhat Member Posts: 15
    My pictures were removed because they were too big. Uploading the resized photos so you can refer back to them. 
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    Denny16Denny16 Member Posts: 5,445
    edited February 2021
    This is a user forum, you need to send these photos to nüCamp to get any issue you may be having resolved.  You say the first three were from the dealer?  If so, I would mention that to nüCamp and who the dealer is.
    cheers
    2018 TaB400 Custom Boondock,  Jeep Gladiator truck, Northern California Coast.
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    manyman297manyman297 Member Posts: 1,185
    @narniaorwhat let us know what Nucamp says. As a future owner this concerns me...we were all sold on the idea that the floor is Azdel and rot proof. 

    @Denny16 It looks like a 400 floor to me. In one of the dealer photos you can see the radiant heat floor vent in the upper left hand side of the photo...although airstream vents look similar.
    2021 400 BD
    2020 Tacoma TRD Off-Road 
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    Denny16Denny16 Member Posts: 5,445
    edited February 2021
    Yes, yes it does.
    cheers
    2018 TaB400 Custom Boondock,  Jeep Gladiator truck, Northern California Coast.
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    jkjennjkjenn Member Posts: 6,391
    manyman297 said:
    So this should be concerning, right? The floor should be Azdel. I’ve seen more than one 2021 400 owner complaining of bubbling...is Nucamp just using plywood under the floor now? 
    That was a very limited number of 400's, I believe mostly in 2018. There was a supply chain issue with the Azdel flooring. They briefly used what they believed to be a comparable substitute. It turns out the substitute wasn't  what it was promised to be. 

    2021 T@b 320 Boondock "Mattie Ross" | 2021 T@b Nights: 239 | Total nights in a T@b 455 | 2022 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Overland | T@b owner since 2014

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    narniaorwhatnarniaorwhat Member Posts: 15
    edited February 2021
    I spoke with Aaron, he’s the manager in the warranty department. He confirmed that my flooring is exactly what it should be. They made the switch in 2020 from azdel to luan (plywood) flooring, which is fine since it was intended. I guess there was a lot of feedback about azdel being too soft. He mentioned bubbling could be due to screws coming up and they can fix that at the factory. Highly recommend speaking with someone directly instead of back and forth emails for a month. We are now on track to get the bubbling resolved. Thank you for all your help. 
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    ChrisFixChrisFix Member Posts: 725
    jkjenn said:
    manyman297 said:
    So this should be concerning, right? The floor should be Azdel. I’ve seen more than one 2021 400 owner complaining of bubbling...is Nucamp just using plywood under the floor now? 
    That was a very limited number of 400's, I believe mostly in 2018. There was a supply chain issue with the Azdel flooring. They briefly used what they believed to be a comparable substitute. It turns out the substitute wasn't  what it was promised to be. 
    @jkjenn
    I think @manyman297 concern is more why are the 2021 floors exhibiting bubbling under the linoleum flooring?
    To my count, there are 4 forum members, including myself, reporting the same issue - which I haven't seen reported for other years (with the exception of the azdel substitute units).
    After two years of looking and considering...finally the proud owner of a 2021 T@B 400 Boondock!
    2023 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E with Redarc Trailer Brake Controller
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    manyman297manyman297 Member Posts: 1,185
    Man, this is why I wish they were more clear in their brochures and website about what exactly we’re getting when buying these trailers. Their printed specs are terrible and omit A LOT of information. 

    I think the “soft floor” claim is and excuse to use a cheaper substitute. I think some airstreams are moving towards Azdel subfloors instead of plywood...and Nucamp us moving the opposite direction?

    If you watch some of the factory tour videos on YouTube you’ll see the Azdel floor appears to be bonded to the aluminum so I don’t think screws would ever be an issue.

    It looks like anybody buying these post 2019 is getting an inferior product? Or was this common knowledge and I missed it? Really starting to second guess my purchase. 
    2021 400 BD
    2020 Tacoma TRD Off-Road 
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    ChrisFixChrisFix Member Posts: 725
    @manyman297
    I don't think we have info that says Nucamp is using plywood flooring instead of Azdel...
    What we do have is a big question mark as to what the deal is with @narniaorwhat's floor. And why the curious 'heat' bubbles in some 2021 floors (like mine)?
    I'm curious to see if there is someway to examine what the underlayment is in my 400.
    After two years of looking and considering...finally the proud owner of a 2021 T@B 400 Boondock!
    2023 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E with Redarc Trailer Brake Controller
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    manyman297manyman297 Member Posts: 1,185
    edited February 2021
    @ChrisFix it sounds like @narniaorwhat has confirmed that it is plywood. 

    A quick search about Azdel sub flooring brought me to this link:  

    https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/29513154/print/true.cfm

    And an interesting quote that maybe contradicts everything I thought about using a composite floor:

    “Second, is flooring. Several companies have tried composite flooring. Most (all?) have switched back to the tried and true 3/4" plywood. My assessment of the failure of composite flooring is that there was not enough aluminum tubing used in the floor PLUS the same fiberglass panels used for wall construction were used for the floor. My research has shown that no fiberglass skin manufacturer recommends their product to be used as a subfloor.  Has this changed ?“
    2021 400 BD
    2020 Tacoma TRD Off-Road 
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    berggerbergger Moderator Posts: 983
    Not common knowledge at all.  I believed the trailer I was buying had a composite floor.  Every thing I had seen and heard pointed to that.  Even the sales people told me that! Now some believe a plywood floor is better as it is more rigid.  Not sure if this is true or not.  I just hope the floor is sealed properly so issues with rot do not spring up in several years.  I guess there is no sense worrying over something that has not happened yet.  I'm hopeful that with good maintenance and care the trailer floor will last for years and years.  

    Now that I know it has a plywood floor and I only had minor bubbling on one occasion,  that disappeared the next day, I bet it was just a lack of adhesive in those spots that allowed the linoleum to expand with the heat and bubble. 

    But what irks me more is that they never disclosed this MAJOR change in construction.  I'm sure it was because they knew it would not go over well.  If they were having issues with the composite floor and this change created a more rigid floor and a better product I'm thinking they would had disclosed it.  Or maybe they did not want to piss off people with composite floors if it is fact better.  Who knows, but it is always better to disclose major changes then not too.  Need to be transparent.  Any way I'll keep an eye on my floor and if the bubbling happens again I will certainly contact NuCamp. 

    I still would love to see a new video of the construction of the trailers to see how the floors are exactly made and to see if they made any other major changes that nobody knows about.  It would also be nice to hear an official statement as to why they made the change, cheaper or better? 
    2021 T@b 400 BD  "Vixen Gail" 
    2018 Nissan Titan Pro 4X "Big Bird"
    Leadville Colorado
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    manyman297manyman297 Member Posts: 1,185
    edited February 2021
    In my cursory search it sounds like companies that tried a composite flooring eventually went back to plywood because of the lack of rigidity (exactly what Nucamp told @narniaorwhat)I swear I saw something that said Airstream was using Azdel subfloors but maybe I was mistaken. 

    But even if it’s a change for the better, tell people about it. They really need to be more comprehensive in their specs section and spell out everything. Even in their brochure they don’t even try to upsell the Alde unit. They should have an entire section devoted to this. Terrible marketing. To be honest their brochure feels more like a children’s book. I want detailed information. 

    2021 400 BD
    2020 Tacoma TRD Off-Road 
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    Denny16Denny16 Member Posts: 5,445
    edited February 2021
    Chris, et all, I have sent a email to nüCamp to see if we can clarify what the floor is actually made.  I will report back as soon as I get a response, which can take two days per the auto response I received.
    cheers
    2018 TaB400 Custom Boondock,  Jeep Gladiator truck, Northern California Coast.
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    manyman297manyman297 Member Posts: 1,185
    Thanks @Denny16. I’m just going off of what @narniaorwhat heard from Nucamp (several posts above here...sorry, I’ve been posting like a madman). It sounds like they confirmed it was plywood. 
    2021 400 BD
    2020 Tacoma TRD Off-Road 
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    Denny16Denny16 Member Posts: 5,445
    edited February 2021
    As far as I understand, nüCamp has been using an Azdel foam Azdel laminate floor around an aluminum frame.

    See the first several minutes of Paul the AirForce guy video tour showing the Azdel floor units and side wall construction in 2019 TaB400s:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAqjQGHSDb8

    This topic comes up every year since the 2018 non Azdel substitute floor composite was used in late 2017 to Jan 2018, triggering a factory advisory about replacing some of the floors that had issues.  Here is a discussion from 2019:
    Cheers
    2018 TaB400 Custom Boondock,  Jeep Gladiator truck, Northern California Coast.
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    AirBossAirBoss Member Posts: 740
    Given the history of the issues surrounding the flooring in past years it would be nice to know when nuCamp switch away from Azdell, for what reason, and to what materials exactly? 

    I'd suppose nuCamp could advise that "after the Build Date of _______" the flooring in all models (or certain models) were converted from Azdel to __________ for the following reasons. Or at a minimum advise how an owner can tell is his/her rig is Azdel or plywood without deconstructing the flooring. 

    Interested as it seems my rig is a candidate. Certainly like to know what I have and why. 


    2020 T@B 400 "OTTO" (build date 08/19)
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    '04 Chevy Tahoe Z71 DinoKiller
    San Diego, CA
    www.airbossone.com
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