100% waterless coolant for my Alde no water no corrosion non toxic life time never needs changing

Denny16

OK, the temps are going to be similar, Alde runs at a max of 185F, and averages around 170F.  A typical automobile engine a little warmer, around 170F - 210F.  The main difference is going to be the air exposure the glycol will get in the Alde vs a closed engine cooling system.

While this new Evans glycol is an interesting idea, I would still contact them to see what the say about using in a heating system like the Alde before you try it.
cheers

lkc001

@Mellow_Yellow did you happen to ph test after your second change? If so what was the ph?  Thanks!

Dalehelman

@qhumberd
I have used Evans waterless in my 2015 JeepGC since new. I first saw their product on the Jay Leno  car show. Check out YouTube. I recently found out they had a product that was non toxic. According to Evans water is what causes all the problems in cooling systems, but water is the best coolant or transfer fluid. Evans has developed a product that transfers heat without water. Sounds like a win win. Hence my reason for starting this thread.

Denny16

Yes, I agree using this in a auto engine, sounds grand.  But I still question is application in the Alde, which is not a sealed cooling system, just the opposite, it is a heating system.
cheers

Dalehelman

Tabaz said:

Dale - so glad your original post has sprung legs and is creating a robust discussion.  As an aside, breakfast tomorrow morning is out because I confused Lake Pleasant with Roosevelt Lake.  You are WAY far away from my location in Phoenix.  Can't wait to see where this topic leads!

Looks like we will be here for a couple more days. If you could make it up I’ll buy lunch.

Dalehelman

Denny16 said:

Yes, I agree using this in a auto engine, sounds grand.  But I still question is application in the Alde, which is not a sealed cooling system, just the opposite, it is a heating system.
cheers

Since Evans has such a high boiling point it does not create pressure in the system. At operating temperature there pressure build up as there is with water based Coolants. So couldn’t the Alde be a closed circuit also? No pressure no danger. The Evans in my car cools the engine as well as heating the interior simultaneously.

BridgerSunset

@Dalehelman is trying to find a workable solution, & it's appreciated.

Seems to me that as long as a fluid is conductive, then corrosion is still possible, even if less probable.  So maybe added water isn't necessarily required to still have some corrosion.  Wonder how or if the subject solution is conductive, during its service cycle?

The systems (triethylene glycol) I've dealt with aren't propylene, so probably a totally different world & mechanism.  But the TEG was used purposely to absorb water from a gas stream; and the mix was subsequently reheated to boil off all the absorbed water, before returning to service.  Not sure how pertinent that is, just a comment

Denny16

No Dale, the Alde is not a closed system.  A closed cooling system is a sealed unit, can have pressure, but not required. There is no air exposure in a closed system.  

The Alde is not actually closed, it has a reservoir tank with an air/overflow vent that is not a syphon, so air gets introduced into the glycol in this tank, which is constantly having fluid pumped into and out of it as the glycol circulates.  An auto overflow expansion glycol tank is a dead leg tank, using s syphon system to allow glycol to expand and flow back into the system if it gets low, glycol is not being pumped into and out if it as part of the circulation system.
cheers

Dalehelman

@Denny16
So why not just plug the vent tube?

Dalehelman

Since I have used Evans products for years, and become experienced in what it takes to completely evacuate and eliminate all water and glycol in an existing system. Those of you who are interested should take time to familiarize yourselves with their products via their website and YouTube video. It may help you understand where I am coming from.

Denny16

Then you might build up pressure in the Alde circulation system, which is based on gravity feed, plus being pumped, not pressurized.  An automotive system is a pressurized base system.  On the Alde, the reservoir is the highest fluid point in the system, so when turned off, fluid is pulled back down into the glycol circulation system, and fills the main boiler and Flo (if used) to their full level.  A check valve prevents reverse circulation, so the fluid flow is from the reservoir tank to the Adle boiler.  

While the Alde system appears simple, and in principle, it is.  But, as it is implemented, it can become quite complex, with its two different fluid circulation systems ( glycol and hot water), and the Flo adds another layer of complexity to the TaB400.  
cheers

Dalehelman

2015 T@b Sofitel doesn’t have the Flo.
The Evans fluid will not build pressure. In fact that is one of its benefits. Since there is no pressure hoses last much longer and no chance of a blown hose with hot steam and liquid Spewing everywhere. They claim you can remove the pressure cap even after the vehicle is at operating temperature. I have yet to try that. 

Dalehelman

Jay Leno’s Garage Evans coolant video 

https://youtu.be/t7PykrgzWPQ

Horigan

Dalehelman said:

Denny16 said:

Yes, I agree using this in a auto engine, sounds grand.  But I still question is application in the Alde, which is not a sealed cooling system, just the opposite, it is a heating system.
cheers

Since Evans has such a high boiling point it does not create pressure in the system. At operating temperature there pressure build up as there is with water based Coolants. So couldn’t the Alde be a closed circuit also? No pressure no danger. The Evans in my car cools the engine as well as heating the interior simultaneously.

The fluid will still expand when heated, regardless of its boiling point.  That's why the level changes at the reservoir depending on whether the system is cold or hot while running.  That expansion in a closed system would create pressure, which the Alde system is not designed for.

Tabaz

Probably a dumb question, but will the Evans fluid get hot enough to heat the cabin?

Denny16

That is a very good question.
cheers

Dalehelman

Tabaz said:

Probably a dumb question, but will the Evans fluid get hot enough to heat the cabin?

Would depend on what temp the boiler is set at.

Dalehelman

@Horigan
Apparently it expands so such a small rate there is no significant pressure. If you haven’t please watch the video I posted earlier.

Denny16

But that is in a vehicle cooling system, not an Alde boiler.  There is a difference between pulling heat from an engine with a short circulation path and to a heat exchanger to cool it back down.  There will be little expansion.  However, put that glycol in a heating boiler and the glycol will expand (water doesn’t expand it boils to create steam which can build significant pressure).  That is why the Alde system has a reservoir ( expansion tank) to give the glycol a place to expand into, so it does not build pressure in the Alde circulation system.
cheers

Dalehelman

I guess I can’t convince you that it will work. I am not convinced it will not. So just to satisfy myself I am going to give it a try. Kind of like Columbus.

Denny16

Do your self a favor Dale, and call Evans first, and get their feedback and recommendation.  You are looking at about a $180 investment in glycol. Good luck.
cheers

gulfarea

We need to find some kind of oil that has a very high flash point. That would sure take care of the corrosion problem. Oil filled 120 volt electric heaters have been sold and used for years. Art

Denny16

And one of mine only lasted about five years and quit working...
cheers

ChanW

Dale, I'd love to know what you learn with this. Please keep us updated on your progress. Would be interesting to know what the manufacturer thinks. 

ScottG

This is a pretty intriguing suggestion. Let me say up front I have absolutely no knowledge upon which to base an opinion on the use of the Evans coolant, so I'll others carry on the debate. Hats off to you, Dale, for your willingness to pioneer another T@B innovation. 

That said--since the impetus for this suggestion is corrosion protection--I do think it would be beneficial to get a handle on the exact nature of the corrosion currently being seen on the convectors of older T@Bs. Someone recently (@BridgerSunset?) discussed the phenomenon of "deposit corrosion" in which dried salts or other residue trapped under the heater hoses corrodes the aluminum from extended surface contact.  While the specific chemistry of this is out of my pay grade, the explanation certainly fits with what I've observed on my own convectors.

How this relates to "regular" galvanic corrosion--and whether the Evans coolant will make any difference in this case--is beyond my ability to predict. 

Dalehelman

@gulfarea
The Evans coolant seems to have a slightly oily feel to it. Since it contains no water they must use some other medium to gain the desired transfer effect.

Dalehelman

Waiting to here back from Evans. It was not a question they had been ask before. They were not familiar with the Swedish product.
When Alde North America was located in Portland Oregon.I stopped by for a visit and to pick up a small tubing fitting that was leaking. 

The technician I visited with was extremely knowledgeable about their product. The young fellows name was Spencer. He also gave me a bunch of other various small fittings since they are metric and almost impossible to find in the US.At no charge I might add. Unfortunately I hear he is no longer with them after the merger. I believe they wanted him to move from Portland.
   Since the merger I get the feeling that Alde has become the red headed step child. No offense to red heads. Two of my daughters are beautiful red heads. I hope this is no true. 

Dalehelman

I just finished talking with Mark Stone from Evans
Long story short there NPG product will work and be safe although without actual testing you can’t be sure. Their products are used in all types of equipment where transfer fluids needed. Be it heating or cooling.

m_lewis

Regarding the difference between automotive engine cooling and Alde heating, I would like to mention that both applications are simply heat transfer mechanisms. 

A great many engines have aluminum components in direct contact with the cooling fluid. So do solar water heating systems that reach similar temps and also need anticorrosion protection. To my knowledge, all manufacturers recommend replacing the coolant/transfer fluid every two years. Seems to be some magic timeframe.

Further, water does expand when heated, about 4% from 68 to 212 degrees. It does not need to boil to expand.

And yes, the max temps in an engine are higher than in an Alde, the only other significant difference is pressurized vs open.

While there is no doubt that when the Alde cools off, some air is drawn into the reservoir, leading to some absorption of water vapor into the transfer fluid. However, there is also evaporation of water at all times. These processes might be equal, or one may exceed the other. As several have mentioned (and my own experience supports), Alde fluid needs to be topped off occasionally. This indicates to me water evaporation is the dominant action in this system.
I don't have the chemistry background to argue either side of this debate, especially in regard to acids or salts created. I just wanted to clarify a few items.

Dalehelman

@m_lewis

Good information thanks for the input. Since Evans has no water to begin with. What small amount of water that maybe absorbed through a small overflow tube may evaporate as well. Making a truly closed system unnecessary. The fluid can be checked occasionally with a
refractometer which I purchased from Amazon for under $20 for % of water it needs to be 3% or less. If it goes above 3% remove some heat above waters boiling point. Retest once below 3% it can be re used.