100% waterless coolant for my Alde no water no corrosion non toxic life time never needs changing

Denny16

Good, now we know, thanks for the updates everyone. When I mentioned water did not expand, I meant significantly to create a high pressure situation, I agree Lewis, it does expand some when heating.  I can see this on the pressure gauge on my model steam engines, the needle lifts off the peg slowly, until steam is,produced and the pressure increases from the steam.

Dale, now you know if the Evans fluid will work, but they were not sure about an side effects to the Alde system.  Good luck with the NPG product, for me, I will stick with Truma/Alde recommendations, at least for the next two years... 
cheers

Dalehelman

@Denny16
Evans was not unclear about side effects. Their products are used in a wide range of applications in both heating and cooling. From Diesel electric engines for the railroad to underfloor hydronic (I think that’s the word he used) heating systems.

Dalehelman

We are currently traveling in AZ. I was planning to wait till I got back to WA. State to inspect our system. Having nothing special to do today I decide to check it out today. Our T@B is a 2015 we bought it new while traveling Calif. so we have had it over 6 years. Traveled coast to coast twice been to the NuCamp rallys in Ohio twice. After inspecting all of the hose connections including in and out of the unit. All of the hose connections to the heating elements and overflow tank. I find that everything looks the same as the day I bought it. No bulging hoses or any kind of residue. I have never renewed the original fluid. I have add maybe a quart over the 6 year period. The trailer is used year round as we travel south in the winter. The Alde is used all of the time.
At any rate I still plan on changing to the Evans NGP since I already ordered it.

Denny16

Good luck with the change Dale.
cheers

Mellow_Yellow

lkc001 said:

@Mellow_Yellow did you happen to ph test after your second change? If so what was the ph?  Thanks!

No, I didn't test the pH. I was actually more concerned about maintaining adequate corrosion protection than the pH, especially since the colour of the Century glycol had changed so dramatically.

ChanW

Shoot! I just bought a 5 gallon pail of transfer glycol (Cryo-Tek 100 Al). It'll be 5 years before I can change it to Dale's lifetime glycol....

Tabaz

Chan - If memory serves, the Cryo-Tek fluid should not be used in the Alde system.  I know there is a utube video with a guy promoting it, but the actual label has some type of warning.  I recall having to dispose of several gallons I purchased.

Tabaz

Note the specs state "not for use with aluminum."
https://www.oatey.com/products/hercules-cryotek--100-antifreeze-171603561

Denny16

@ChanW, perhaps you can send the Cryo-Tek back, you should use either the Century TF-1 or the new Rhomar fluid recommended by Alde for the best corrosion protection of aluminum components in the Alde system.  There is no lifetime heating transfer fluid, the anti corrosion additives start to loose their effectiveness over time and use, which is why the recommended two-year service cycle.  The Antifreeze part will last a long time, but not the anti-corrosion bits.
cheers

Dutch061

@Denny16... It sure seems that Evans offers a "lifetime coolant" and coolant does the same exact thing. It transfers heat. So why do you insist there is "no lifetime heating transfer fluid"?

(Mod note: edited to remove contentious language.)

Denny16

If Alde felt one of these lifetime fluids would work in the Alde, they would be recommending one.  From what I have read about transfer fluids, the specific, proprietary anti-corrosion additives have a limited life when used in heating systems like the Alde where aluminum convectors are used.  You need the anti-corrosion protection in addition to feeezing protection.

I have a so-called lifetime coolant (antifreeze) in my diesel tractor.  I plan to change this out every five years, which is about the lifetime of corrosion inhibitors they use.  Same goes for my new Jeep Gladiator, it gets the coolant changed periodically also.  While coolants and oils are constantly improved, they still have a limited service lifetime, and need replacing.  

Newer vehicles track the actual engine running time and work load to compute the oil change cycle, instead of the every 3,000 miles or three months cycle.  But eventually the oil needs changing, in our Volt this works out to once a year in the auxiliary engine that runs the generator.
Cheers

Dutch061

@Denny16...  I hate to tell you this but ALL vehicles built in the last several decades (4 or more) have had dissimilar metals. As in aluminum cylinder heads, blocks, radiators, head gaskets, and heater cores with the mixture being used as various as the different types of vehicles being built. 

I am not sure what your background is, but I can assure you that the temperatures and environment in transferring the heat in any internal combustion engine is a much harsher environment than the Alde ever will be.

Lastly, you are dead wrong that the primary goal of antifreeze in an internal combustion engine is for freeze protection and not corrosion protection. 

Antifreeze provides 5 major benefits:

1. Freeze protection 
2. Corrosion protection
3. Increase boiling point
4. Improve heat transfer
5. Lubrication IE water pump seals

Depending on the latitude where the vehicle is located will determine which order they are actually placed in.  

As far as a vehicle being delivered to you new with lifetime coolant, they are delivered with an extended life coolant. There is a big difference between the two, and yes the primary reason to replace them after the period recommended by the manufacturer is to renew those corrosion inhibitors and restore the PH to the proper level to prevent the dissimilar metals from not liking each other any more. As previously pointed out, Evans has zero water and therefore zero corrosion. 

Just because Alde doesn't use it doesn't mean that it isn't a far superior heat transfer fluid. In a similar fashion, just because your vehicle uses conventional motor oil doesn't mean that synthetic isn't far superior in shear strength, low temperature flow characteristics, and high temperature protection. 

Typically these types of fluids are spec'd by the manufacturer and put out to bid. Lowest price that meets the criteria gets the contract. Nothing more, nothing less. I have no reason to believe that Alde operates any different from any other manufacturer. This isn't a negative towards Alde or any other manufacturer, it is simply how business is done. 

Brad

ChanW

@Tabaz , @Denny16 "Cryo-Tek 100 Al" is for aluminum systems.

Tabaz

@Tabaz , @Denny16 "Cryo-Tek 100 Al" is for aluminum systems.
DOH! I guess you now have my permission to use it. 

ChanW

@Tabaz I knew you'd understand... 

Denny16

Thanks Dutch for the correction.
cheers

Tabaz

Chan - just looking out for you.  Didn't want you to make the same mistake I did by ordering the wrong Cryo-Tek fluid.  Should have known you'd have done the proper research.  You're so smart.  Mom always liked you best.

ScottG

Ahhh, @Tabaz, but you're the funny one--and we know what that means...  ;-)

Dalehelman

I’d like to get this tread back on target. I will be replacing the Century fluid with the Evans. This will require complete evacuation of the Alde system of any water. In order to accomplish this. I will be using the same method I used and was recommended by Evans on our Jeep. All that is needed is a Shop Vac. By Applying vacuum to the return side of the Alde through the recovery tank. Once the old fluid is removed you continue to draw air through the system for a half hour or more. This will completely dry the system of any remaining water which is extremely important.
Evans also recommends running their prep fluid through the system. I can’t stress enough how important it is remove all traces of water if possible before introducing their waterless product. In order maintain the lifetime corrosion free properties. No more than 3% water is allowed. So if you are not diligent in the evacuation process then you will not obtain the full benefits of  their product. Now it’s time refill the system. This can be done by following Alde’s instructions. I plan to use the shop vac again to draw the coolant through the system. A section of clear tubing will allow me to see when the system is clear of air bubbles. Then a refractometer is used to verify that there is less than 3% water.
smile.amazon.com/dp/B008SCOWXS/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_imm_awdb_QTK6WRXS398HBDQB788W?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

ScottG

Sounds like a plan, @Dalehelman. A tidbit I'll offer from my own experience flushing the Alde is that the boiler core seems to retain some amount of fluid that doesn't gravity drain and (given the shape of the system) may not be fully drawn into your shop vac. It may also be too much to adequately dry just from drawing air through the system for 30+ minutes.

In hindsight, a couple things I might have tried while the drain was open were tipping the trailer tongue up and down a few times, pressurizing the glycol cylinder from the outflow at the top of the Alde, or even suctioning from the drain itself.

My final fill did seem a little diluted when I tested it, but not enough to worry about it since I was using traditional fluid. It your case, getting all the flush water out seems critical. 

Just passing this along. Do with it as you wish.  

Dalehelman

Thank you @ScottG
The Evans prep fluid is designed to capture and remove any small pockets of trapped moisture. I will probably run it through 2 or 3 times as well. After preparing my Jeep it registered 0% of water on the refractometer.

Dalehelman

Just removed the old Century fluid. Very cloudy. Probably an indication of corrosion. I used a shop vac because I prefer not to loosen any of the hose connections since none are showing signs of leaking. I placed the hose end through the fill cap and directly onto the return line which is directly below. If interested. Stay tuned for the next step.
The flush.

lkc001

@Dalehelman Dale--so tell me if I am correct--between putting your shop vac hose on the return line hole in the tank and pulling the plug under the trailer, you got out all of the old fluid?

Dalehelman

I did not pull the drain plug. Just used the shop vac.
At this time if I were going to continue to use Century fluid or the newer recommended fluid I would refill bleed the air and be done. The waterless fluid I will be using requires additional flushing which a special prep fluid.

lkc001

@Dalehelman So your shop vac has enough suction to pull the fluid out from the entire system through just the return line?  Did you just put the extension wand from your shop vac over the return line hole and hold it there?   What kind of shop vac do you have?  Thank you for your patience as always answering questions!

Dalehelman

@lkc001
The Alde glycol Circuit is just one continuous loop that starts and ends in the fill bottle. I did shorten an extra wand I had and place a piece of clear 1” plastic tubing in line that way I could see the fluid as it was vacuumed out. Any wet vac will do. The vacuum provides hi volume and low pressure. Perfect for the 1” Alde system IMHO.

lkc001

@Dalehelman— thank you!

ScottG

Dale and I had a recent conversation via PM regarding the hygroscopic nature of the Evans coolant. At his request, I'm posting it here:

-------------------------

ScottG 12:53PM

Hi Dale,

Mostly out of curiosity, I was perusing the Evans site and found this tidbit in the FAQ. I don't know if you are aware of it or have taken it into account, but since the Alde system is not closed or pressurized like an automobile, the Evans is likely to pick up significant moisture from the air as it gurgles though the expansion tank and will therefore not remain waterless for long.

Q: Over time, will Evans absorb water from the atmosphere?

A: Evans Waterless Coolant is hygroscopic, which means it has the ability to absorb moisture. Evans should not absorb a significant amount of moisture as long as a conventional pressure cap is used.  

(Source: https://www.evanscoolant.com/news/keep-your-coolwithout-water/#:~:text=A: Evans Waterless Coolant is,conventional pressure cap is used.)

Dalehelman 1:57PM

I have considered issue of water absorption. 

1. The small amount of water absorbed may evaporate.
The water in Century fluid evaporates over time that’s why it is necessary to add fluid. Even though with the open system is absorbing water. Seems it evaporates faster than it absorbs. As apparently all glycol absorbs water.
2. The only way air enters the Alde system is through small overflow tube. This allows for expansion and contraction as the fluid heats and cools. Also considering placing a balloon over that vent the fluid can expand and contrast as needed without excess pressure buildup. There by creating a closed system. Also by checking % of water content occasionally. If it were to go over 3%. Removing the fluid and heating it to over 212* will boil off absorbed water. Then it can be reused. Your thoughts.

ScottG 2:30PM

Thanks for your detailed reply. Sounds like you were aware of this and have thought it through. The specific chemistry that drives this is a bit out of my pay grade so I can't speculate to what degree this may be a problem based on the rate of absorption vs. evaporation. I suppose if you give it try and monitor it as you describe you'll know soon enough if you are taking on water in excess of that critical 3%. (Whether having to remove and boil the glycol periodically is any improvement over just changing it is completely up to you.)

My only concern about blocking the expansion tank vent is that it might impede the flow of glycol out of the tank. However, there is a circulator pump involved here, too (as opposed to just gravity) so that's a tough call as well. It's easy enough to try and again, you'll know soon enough if it create any problems.

Dalehelman 3:29PM

Thanks for your input. No one can think of everything. I don’t think a slight pressure increase will have any effect on pump circulation. Since the pressure is equal on both sides of the pump. Pressure is not a blockage so flow should not be effected.

Dalehelman 3:37PM

Scott could you add this PM thread to my post? I think there is good information for those who may be following it. Besides I would like their input if there is any.

Dalehelman

I have noticed 1.2k views to this thread. There are only a few actively participating. If you have input regarding this topic. Feel free to jump in with your questions comments or ideas.

Verna

@Dalehelman, you should know by now that when Dale Helman speaks, we read!  Thank you for your honest reviews, and great advice!