Tab 400 - Weight-Distribution Hitch Not Recommended Due To C-Channel Construction

BigGrover

Not a pro on this but based on my experience one that has bolt holes that allow you to mount the brackets properly.  Google Equal-I-Lizer installation instructions and videos, they explain it better than I can.  You have to be able to get the bar brackets the correct height on the sides of your frame as well as secured vertically and the correct distance from the hitch ball. Etrailer is a good source for info too.

falcon1970

@robyn769
I had the same experience with BAL.  Ryan is the guy who is the supposed expert.  I'll call again on Monday.

JEB

robyn769 said:

what is considered an appropriate bracket though? 

It depends on what you mean by “appropriate.”  Ideally, a bracket fits vertically without the use of shims (4-3/8” in the case of the BAL Norco frame) and provides multiple points of contact for the inside and outside link plates to grip to prevent slippage.  The problem with c-channels (other than the lack of structural rigidity) is that the outside link plates have full contact when the assembly is torqued properly but the inside link plates have contact points only at the top and bottom of the plate near the bolts and no contact at all in the middle.  It poses the same problem as a link plate bowed outward from improper torquing which Equalizer instructs against.  It is the lack of contact points in the middle of the inside link plate that causes Andersen to require either welding of the outside link plate or drilling for the set screw when using its WDH on a c-channel frame. 

[Deleted User]

JEB awesome explaination!!!!  Its so clear to me now!

Awca12a

The 4-3/8 brackets that @JEB suggested just arrived and I’m going to install them.  Will post what the configuration looks like to help close the loop.  If by some good fortune the WD brings the tongue weight safely below 500# using the 600# equalizer then problem solved.  Replacement gauge for Tongue scale due in shortly.  

BigGrover

@Awca12a,  just wondering if maybe filling the channel behind the bracket with a piece of treated lumber trimmed to fit would be of any benefit?

Awca12a

Installed the BAL specific link plates on the Equalizer and very glad I did.  You can see where the old link plates were bowing so now we have the correct equipment and are under the 750# max for WD per the sticker.  While I I had the tub off, I took the opportunity to add the white metal Home Depot shelf to block the rear opening using stainless steel hardware.  That metal shelf was 33" long x 12" high.  

Figure this is a good place to post the work I did a while back on the Equalizer hitch maintenance for lube & torquing as the socket sizes are pretty specific and I don't usually have those sizes in the truck kit.  See attached PDF. Huge thanks to all who pitched in and hoping for a good weigh with the WD hooked-up.

If anyone else is going to go this route, I've posted a picture of the final install so you can see how the square bar under the tub sits.  The top of the "L" bracket touching the bottom of the tub was trimmed to fit and notched to make room for the top bolt of the new link brackets.   Nothing like a sawzall.

JEB

Nice work.  As the tongue weights continue to creep up, I think I'm going to have to press my old Fastway e2 back into service.  I was really hoping to avoid that.  But, at least I can install it without having to modify anything on the frame.

MandoBiker

@Awca12a looks good.  Just curious, what is the distance from the coupler to the L brackets, and what is the distance from the coupler to the front of the tub?  Thanks.

[Deleted User]

Just FYI, (and this does not answer your question) but my understanding is that the Fastway e2 is the best fit WDH for the T@B since the brackets for it can be installed closer to the coupler than the Equalizer, but do not take my word on this.  I just read this somewhere possibly this thread but maybe another one.  Also make sure to order the 4 3/8" brackets so you don't need to add a metal shim/bar as pictured above.  

MandoBiker

robyn769 said:

Just FYI, (and this does not answer your question) but my understanding is that the Fastway e2 is the best fit WDH for the T@B since the brackets for it can be installed closer to the coupler than the Equalizer, but do not take my word on this.  I just read this somewhere possibly this thread but maybe another one.  Also make sure to order the 4 3/8" brackets so you don't need to add a metal shim/bar as pictured above.  

Yes, the e2 round bar can be installed with brackets down to 20 inches from coupler, with 24” or greater preferred if possible.  The trunnion version requires 27-30”.  I am considering the e2, and would prefer truinnion but if round can be installed in front of the the tub, it might be a better option.  This info is available in the manuals availabale on the Fastway website.

JEB

robyn769 said:

Just FYI, (and this does not answer your question) but my understanding is that the Fastway e2 is the best fit WDH for the T@B since the brackets for it can be installed closer to the coupler than the Equalizer, but do not take my word on this.  I just read this somewhere possibly this thread but maybe another one.  Also make sure to order the 4 3/8" brackets so you don't need to add a metal shim/bar as pictured above.  

Yes.  The Fastway e2 with round bars can be installed as close as 20" from the coupler for applications where tongue weights will not exceed 800 lbs.  I'm not sure if this is true for the e2 that uses trunnion bars. 

Awca12a

@robyn769 This photo is using those 4-3/8 brackets I just installed.  You need a shim because the bolt sits on top of the C channel which is where the tub would also sit.  You can either cut a hole in the bottom of the tub with a MIG welder which I don’t have or install simple square bar stock and notch out a bolt space which most of us can more easily do.  

@MandoBiker As to distance, the equalizer was set according to the optimal specs per their manual.  You can slide that L bracket anywhere you want to gain more or less WD but I followed the equalizer book to the letter.  I’ll measure what you asked and post it. 

[Deleted User]

Oh sorry about the bad info then.  I was thinking someone had told me the 4 3/8" were a perfect fit...or perhaps it would be if the tub wasn't in the way, etc. Good to know!

JEB

robyn769 said:

Oh sorry about the bad info then.  I was thinking someone had told me the 4 3/8" were a perfect fit.  Good to know!

No, the info was fine.  The brackets are a perfect fit for the frame.  The placement on the frame relative to the coupler is the issue.  Trunnion style bars have to have the brackets installed in a place where they interfere with the tub.  Round bars have more placement flexibility and the brackets can be installed in a place that doesn’t interfere with the tub.  Two entirely different issues. 

Awca12a

@JEB Any thoughts on pro-con between the trunion style & round bar as to operation?  Why would someone go with one method instead of the other all things being equal?

[Deleted User]

Round bars give less ground clearance, but I'm sure JEB can give a more precise response.  I'm learning alot from him myself 

BigGrover

I have had both round bars that inserted into the bottom of the hitch head and then the Square ones on the Equal-I-Lizer.  With the round ones I had to have a friction sway control bar added.

JEB

robyn769 said:

Round bars give less ground clearance, but I'm sure JEB can give a more precise response.  I'm learning alot from him myself 

Ha!  Well, this time you stumped me. The main difference I am aware of is exactly what you said.  Round bars do indeed provide less ground clearance.  But functionally—why trunnion bars are considered superior—I really don’t know.  Equalizer uses only trunnion bars and that brand provides better sway control.  But it isn’t because it uses trunnion bars per se.  You can get trunnion bars in the Fastway brand as well.  Equalizer provides better sway control because it uses a 4-point system to provide friction but Fastway—even in the trunnion version—provides only 2-point.  

In this particular application—the 400—I think the Fastway is the better choice for two reasons.  First, this is only an 18-foot trailer we’re talking about.  You don’t really need the sway control muscle of the Equalizer and the Fastway is cheaper.  Second, round bars appear to allow for more flexible bracket placement than trunnions (for tongue weights under 800 lbs) and you can get round bars only on the Fastway.  What you give up in ground clearance going with round bars you get back in not having to make any modifications to use them.

But all things being equal—and they rarely are—why would you prefer trunnions over round bars if you had the choice, aside from ground clearance considerations?  You got me.

Awca12a

.

BigGrover

@Awca12a, look again I see about 560, it is close to the 600 lb tic. Each tic between 400 and 600 is 50 lbs.

Awca12a

Deleted.  Going to test check the scale.  

JEB

Awca12a said:

I went back and re-measured based on @BigGrover making sure both the trailer and the base under the scale was absolutely level.  Switched to the skid foot from the wheel to make sure the scale piston was exactly in line with the piping of the BAL hitch.   Final result for a 2019 T@B400 Boondock Lite with 2-way refigerator and no microwave option was 590#.

Just in case there is an issue with temperature changing the reading, the scale will be warmed to 72 degrees on the cast iron fireplace overnight and tested again.

Assuming this is correct, how would you get the tongue weight under 20% of the trailer weight as the rule of thumb says it should be?   According to "the internet", weight distribution doesn't change tongue weight but it does shift weight from the rear axle to the front axle and to the trailer axle(s).

I think something is wrong with your scale.  Binding from being off level or cold are things that I would expect to produce an underweight measurement because the piston isn’t compressing completely.  You’re showing an overweight by approximately 100 pounds above specs. That can’t be right.  Might be time to head to the CAT scale for an accurate measurement and make sure your tongue scale is reading accurately.

BigGrover

@Awca12a did i see the trailer tongue jack foot on the scale?  If so that is not the way the instructions are for my scale.  You are supposed to put the scale on blocks under the coupler and lower the trailer' on it like it is the hitch ball. With the trailer level. How about trying it that way and see what you get?

JEB

BigGrover said:

@Awca12a did i see the trailer tongue jack foot on the scale?  If so that is not the way the instructions are for my scale.  You are supposed to put the scale on blocks under the coupler and lower the trailer' on it like it is the hitch ball. With the trailer level. How about trying it that way and see what you get?

You can do it both ways with the Sherline but you are correct— you have to do it at least once at the coupler to get an accurate measurement.  Once you get the weight at the coupler, you can then get the weight at the jack and calculate the ratio.  If you find that the weight at the coupler is say 95% of the weight at the jack, you can multiply the weight at the jack going forward and then multiply it by .95.

I still think getting a weight at a CAT scale is probably a good idea.  Two would be better because then you can get a really accurate tongue weight and the weight at all three axles.

Awca12a

With the benefit of the reminder above from @BigGrover that I needed to use the tongue and not the hitch, the result was right around 490#.  I leave it to your interpretation from the photo below.  The scale was first warmed to 74-degrees and tested with 190# and 240# of known weights.  Trailer A-frame and Shirline scale was checked with a torpedo level.   Base was a tubular steel T-Post hammer dug into frozen ground.

Good news for those here with tongue weight abilities north of 500#.   Since my vehicle has a 5000# tow capacity making it right at the limit before adding any tank weight, equipment or even the WD hitch, I'm out of luck but at least its been field tested and double checked.   Given the previous weight posted here of 460# without the LP tank or other equipment, I'm convinced that the weight shown below is correct.

Anybody interested in a well maintained 2013 4Runner and new Equalizer hitch???

[Deleted User]

I talked to the go-to-guy at BAL/Norco (T@B trailer frame manufacturer), Ryan Emil (574-612-4948) about the use of a weight distribution hitch with the 400 and he wouldn't say a whole lot about specific types of brackets. He said the main issue is not the twisting of the trailer frame where the brackets are attached. He said the problem is when people over torque the hitch trying to get level (or use one that is too large) and this puts heavy upward pressure on the A frame area which in turn puts upward pressure on the front wall of the camper.  He said the WDH is more likely to cause the A section of the trailer to bow upward and not so much twist.  

[Deleted User]

FYI on the Propane Tank...just in case not everyone knows....a 20# propane tank weighs about 35 pounds when full of propane.  

Sharon_is_SAM

Here is the email reply from Scott Hubble regarding the 400 tongue weight variation and the use of a WDH.  

March 8, 2019

To our nüCamp family & T@B Community…

 While it took a while for word to get to me - and then for me to get adequate resources to address this issue - I wanted to take the time to speak to it directly.

 Every 400 (or T@B, T@G, Cirrus for that matter) will vary slightly based on the package (standard or boondock) and options (microwave, solar, inverter, fridge type) selected.  Furthermore, there will be a slight variance based on wood composition, screws, butyls, adhesives, etc…as the density and total amounts employed can fluctuate moderately from build to build.

 We make changes each spring with the release of model year adjustments, as well as something that we term as ‘running changes.’  These changes are typically not visually noticeable, but we consider them to be important enough in terms of regulation or function, that we employ them immediately.

 For the most ‘up to date’ verification, I had our lead in QC and Master Tech, Marvin Raber, conduct several tests – on 4 different units each with different configurations – both wet and dry.  Below are the results:

				Tongue Weights
		Standard Unit			Dry Weight	Wet Weight
			With 2-Way Fridge		416	429
			With 3-Way Fridge		441	435
		Boondock Package
			With 2-Way Fridge		418	423
			With 3-Way Fridge		438	451
		Definitions:
			Dry Weight - Empty LP Tank, Empty Fresh Tank
			Wet Weight - Full LP Tank, FullFresh Water
		Conditions:
			LP Storage Tubs (both ABS or Diamond Plate) on-board
			Spare Tire mounted under LP Storage Tub
			Leveled at 16" for Standard Unit
			Leveled at 20" for Boondock Unit
			Entry Door Closed - left open resulted in 4lb overstatement
			Fresh tank near rear, so weight does not change significantly These units did not have microwaves (add approx. 6lbs)
		Individual Weights:
			Diamond Plate Boondock LP Tub			40lbs
			Regular ABS LP Tub			45lbs
			15" Spare Tire			38lbs

With that said, the published tongue weight of 457lbs on the website is considered as accurate – with the variable described above.  Those specifications were recalculated the second half of last year. 

 The units used for this test were recently off the production line.  The scales employed are digital, manufacturing based, high quality scales we recently purchased to be used across all of our production lines.  As such, this is the most accurate information that can be presented – from any resource.

 With respect to questions about Weight Distribution Hitches (WDH) and Sway Bars, it is our position that they can be valuable, when used properly in conjunction with your tow vehicle.  While not required, should you feel the necessity of a WDH in order to maximize towing capacity, we would advise the bolt-on/link style for our NORCO C-Channel Chassis.  These devices maximize the towing performance of your vehicle.  They cannot render an unqualified vehicle to tow above its towing capacity.  We always refer owners to check their vehicle’s owner’s manual for towing capacity.

 We will be engaging in specification updates across all lines once again this spring.  We have had several component changes as well as core material changes that will affect weights on the different units.  As we have grown over the years there have been many changes.  We are still playing catch up in several areas – and keeping our specifications up to date has been one that didn’t get enough attention.  Last year we were able to take our focus away from growing our production volumes and turn our gaze to the finer details.  We are improving day by day – and you are the inspiration for it.  We want to build the best units possible, equip you with the most accurate information and deliver the best customer service.  We love each and every one of you and truly see you as family.

 Feel free to reach out to our Customer Service Department - customerservice@nucamprv.com  - with questions, comments, praise, criticism, etc…  Communication is vital to us being a healthy community.

 Have a Wonderful Weekend,

Scott

Verna

Thank you, @Sharon_is_SAM