Permanent Side to Side Sleeping for T@B 320 S

AnOldUR

We wanted to set up our tab to sleep side-to-side and leaving the backrest permanently in the down position. The bedding will stay in place all the time. The sleeping area will not include the two side bench seats. Those side seats will still be used for table seating. By removing that back storage compartment it would widen the width of the sleeping area from the current 40" to over 50" or a little short of a full size mattress.

I pulled out the storage/shelf today and was surprised at what I found. The heating fins are buried under that storage unit with no good way that I could determine for heat to flow into the cabin.  Also, the glycol overflow is tucked behind the cabinetry with no access. You would think the overflow tube from that would exit through the floor, but it stays internal such that an overflow situation would end up on the floor of the camper. All that said, I plan to go ahead with the modification. (edit to say that after pulling the panel I noticed that the top tube is just a breather and that there is an additional overflow tube that exits out the bottom of the trailer.)

My plan is to remove the left side upright panel where there's a 120V outlet completely and remove the center section all the way up to where the right panel begins. The 120V outlet will be relocated below the low voltage outlet on the right. Because of the glycol overflow, the panel on the right would be more work to remove than I'm up for. The downside is that the mattress will have to be notched to go around it, but won't change the sleeping area too much. The bed platform will be extended to support the additional size.

Let the fun begin!

Shelf/storage bin removed.

Side view of storage insert,

Heating fins and glycol tank.

No point in second guessing the nuCamp engineers, but looking at this picture makes me wonder why they didn't put some sort of grill below the outlets on both sides to allow for airflow for the heat? That may be another thing I'll do on the right side. Maybe add a little 12V fan blowing into the cabin.

AnOldUR

To improve the function of this layout, I added another table mount so that the post won't interfere with access to the bed.

AnOldUR

Spent some more time today working on this mod. Decided to remove all of the lower part of the storage/shelf unit. Also re-positioned the glycol tank. This way I'll only need an angled corner plate to hide it. Next up will be the bed platform and cosmetic work to hide the wires.

DougH

@AnOldUR Interesting pictures; looking forward to seeing your successful final results. Were those wires originally in a harness sleeve, or just loose like that?

AnOldUR

DougH said:

@AnOldUR Interesting pictures; looking forward to seeing your successful final results. Were those wires originally in a harness sleeve, or just loose like that?

The wires were loose. I planned to use sleeves in the corners to conceal where the wires go up to the storage bins. Now that you mentioned it, I'll do that to all the wires. I hope to hit Home Depot tomorrow for the plywood to make the bed platform. I'm looking forward to finishing this project. Getting too old for all the contorting it took to work in the tight space.

DougH

@AnOldUR Another thread was talking about advanced T@B Yoga we learn doing mods.  We need that catalog of the top dozen T@B asanas.

Bayliss

@AnOldUR, in your initial post, you stated that you could not see any good way for the Alde heat from the convector to enter the cabin.  The heat rises up along the back wall and through a horizontal opening along the back of the lower lift-up storage compartment.  Did yours not have that have that opening?

Additionally, on earlier models, some of the heat from the rear convector can also flow through vent openings at the floor by the Alde and A/C compartments, but it does look like the space there is pretty much taken up with equipment on your 2020 model.  However, it does appear that you have the vent openings in the wood cabinets at the bottom by the floor.

Denny16

The round vent openings on the cabinet fronts is for the Air8 AC.  The long slit like openings along the cabinets at the floor is a cold air return for the Alde heat connectors.  Thus is a passive convection system, air rises at it is heated at the convectors and cold air at the floor is drawn up into the hot convectors.
cheers

AnOldUR

@Denny16 and @Bayliss ... The passive convection action is obvious for the heating elements under the passenger side bench seat. There are vents at the top and bottom of the panel. But for those longer elements across the back, it’s not so clear. There is a very indirect path for air to draw up through the vents on the lower part of the back seat panel, but there’s no way that I saw for it to exit. What am I missing?

ChanW

Ours has vent slots cut into the front vertical face-board of that compartment. If we're not careful our bedding will block the slots. We tend to use the top of that compartment as a vent, opening it up when we want faster initial heating of the Tab.

DougH

@AnOldUR Strange.  On my older one I have a 3/4" slit behind the rear shelf for the heat to rise through.  That whole rear curved wall as a result gets quite toasty and itself also radiates. It sounds like something shifted or was not screwed in correctly and that slit was much less apparent on yours.  I think I've seen some folks on the forum move things around, relocate the shelf further from the rear curved wall, and put in heating grate along the back wall because they got tired of accidentally dropping pens and other stuff down that rear slit and onto the convector.

But I'm 6'0" and like to sleep side to side in the back for the same reasons you originally posted, so am interested in how your efforts all work out.

AnOldUR

@DougH ... That makes a lot of sense, but on my 320S I don't see any such slits behind the rear shelf. The entire area where the heating element are located seems to be blocked off from the cabin except for cutouts for routing wires and glycol lines. Does yours look something like this?

I'm sure that I'm missing something .......

DougH

@AnOldUR I checked and don't have existing pics of that area, but no mine doesn't look like that.  The areas that house the rear USB and 12V power sockets are flush with the rear curved wall, but the hinged shelf segment is supposed to be shifted 3/4" to 1" away from the rear wall before being screwed in to the rest of it. Sounds like an oopsie in the assembly process.

AnOldUR

@DougH ... Having a gap, like you suggest, would have been a good solution. I'm not sure if the oopsie was at the assembly level or the design level. (Or does nuCamp have another explanation?)

edit to add:
I'll see if I can incorporate something like what you describe into my mod. Thanks!

DougH

@AnOldUR Without that shift forward, it must be more difficult to open the rear shelf as well. Here's a pic from Sharon_Is_Sam from a glycol tank thread, that shows your missing rear slit gap:

...and another showing the width of the rear shelf:

AnOldUR

@DougH ...   Bizarre! Looks like someone messed up on the 2020 build?

DougH

@AnOldUR I think it's just 4 screws that hold the shelf segment in place.  I can imagine a newbie without enough coffee forgetting to put the spacers on the back of the shelf before running those screws through back in late 2019 early 2020.  Fingers crossed they didn't duplicate that error too many times before being corrected.  I doubt there was a design change, as folks have pointed out, since you need an air flow path for natural convection to work efficiently.

Here's another approach to the rear area (August 2018) with front facing air vents.  If vents like that are on your model, or if you add them with a router, maybe mounting the shelf segment flush with the wall works fine.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/7618/the-continuing-pursuit-of-more-storage

4ncar

Ya...not having that gap does throttle the whole design of the main heating element.  I'd say the "oopsie" is defiantly in the assembly, and not the design, because that gap is on all the other Tabs I've seen, including my own... It would be interesting to see another 2021...

DougH

Yup, from everything I've read, very few RV manufacturers have a staff of 25 full time Quality Assurance employees armed with exhaustive checklists with which to conduct careful two hundred point release procedures, including signed off checklist logs for each RV that leaves production, and continuous improvement programs with monthly meetings where QA, production, and design get together to improve overall collected quality metrics.

Instead they have a handful of folks doing final non-formal checks, and rely heavily on dealer checks before a camper gets in the hands of a customer.  And even if they do have a more rigorous QA process, those checklists evolve over time, with feedback from QA people, dealers, or customers.

So compared to many RV manufacturers with no QA at all, tons of particle board and staples, inconsistent lamination, no pocket screws, no plumbing pressure checks, shoddy slap dash construction with glaring defects... the T@B community is still on the fortunate side of the spectrum. My tail lights weren't properly sealed staining the inner rear wall a little, I had foam particles blocking the water pump for the first few months, the ABS decorative trim on top cracked and shifted, and the front window liked to leak in heavy rain, but those were the only oopsies I found so far in four years of ownership (although standard industry components like toilets, fans, fridges, air conditioners, etc. will always have occasional issues). But nüCamp starts with a clean design and quality materials, and backs them up, before and after warranty, better than most the competition. I've been at plenty of RV shows where coaches and trailers have cabinets put together at all sorts of different angles, missing screws in half the hinges, with random gaps between cabinets and walls. On a brand new RV!

WayneW

Our 2021 320S does have a gap behind the shelf as well as an access cutout on both sides that I haven't seen in other photos.  Purchase date was July 2020.  I'm not sure of the build date.

AnOldUR

Thanks for all of the pictures and ideas about proper assembly for heat flow. I'll send an email to nuCamp and see what they have to say about the way mine was put together.

After looking through the link that @DougH posted, I was motivated to change my plans. I was not happy with leaving the glycol tank in the corner of the sleeping area. I'm hoping what I did to overcome this is not a problem. My heating elements were moved lower and forward in the compartment and the glycol tank was moved down below the bed platform. The upper level on the tank is above the highest point where the lines go into the Alde.My fear is that it's too low and may cause glycol to overflow. I had to remove the glycol from the tank to make this change and don't have any to replace it. (Ordered more from Amazon and it should be here some time today.) Any thoughts on this? Guess I'll find out when the glycol gets here, but if I get a hard NO before then, I'll come up with another solution.

Sharon_is_SAM

Install instructions from the 3010 Alde (I assume the same guidelines.)

MOUNTING THE EXPANSION TANK
Mount the expansion tank at least 7.5 inches (200 mm) higher than the highest point of the heating system or boiler. If the expansion tank is mounted in a wardrobe for example, Alde’s protective housing should be mounted around the expansion tank. This will stop accidental splashes coming in contact with clothing. Leave a space of at least 8 inches (220 mm) above the expansion tank for topping up and service. Fit the expansion vessel using the screws and support rings (C 16) supplied. If a circulating pump is fitted in the expansion vessel, it is a sucking pump and incoming hoses shall therefore always be connected to the pipe underneath the pump and out- going hoses to the pipe alongside (see fig. C). The air vent hose (C 17) must be assembled vertically upwards and clamped down so that creases cannot form in the hose. The drainage hose (C 18) must be mounted so that it goes the shortest route from the expansion tank out through the floor of the vehicle. Cut the hose obliquely at a 30o angle from the direction of travel under the vehicle. After the heating system has been filled, the tank shall be sealed with the cap.

DougH

@AnOldUR No idea if tank would be too low. It does bubble a lot when in operation, and a few have reported a little overflow... but maybe that's only if filled above the cold max line. Why guess though... it's easy enough if you're in a cold climate (once Amazon delivers) to find out for sure by running it a few hours.

EDIT: Just saw @Sharon_is_SAM post. Sure sounds like Alde already did the experiment and the expansion tank needs to be higher.

Shadrax

I added a small built in fan next to the table mounting bracket that circulates air and heat from the rear heating radiator out into the main compartment along the floor.  Our complaint was that the heat was poorly distributed, mostly going to the rear and our heads when sleeping.  Now if I can solve the cold WC; any ideas?

AnOldUR

Sharon_is_SAM said:

Mount the expansion tank at least 7.5 inches (200 mm) higher than the highest point of the heating system or boiler.

Well, that's not good news. Back to the drawing board. Although, I may give it a try as @DougH said, while keeping a close eye on it. It will be difficult to meet that 7.5" requirement without building some kind of enclosure for it, but if that's what I have to do .....

AnOldUR

Glycol delivery was delayed (thanks Amazon), so that project is on hold. I did hear back from nuCamp on the heat venting discussion. Their reply (in bold below) didn't provide additional information. It just confirmed that my TAB was not constructed properly. I could contact the warranty department, as suggested, but with the changes I'm making it would not be productive. I might just email to see what they say.

Hello,
Thanks for reaching out to us and for being a part of the nuCamp family! You are correct, there should be a gap there and I'm not sure what happened and why there is not. I suggest reaching out to our warranty department at warranty@nucamprv.com and see what can be done. I hope this helps and if you have any other questions please reach out.

Have a great day! 

Michael Skidmore

Customer Experience

AnOldUR

@DougH ... Glycol got here today, so I gave the lower expansion tank mount location a try while watching closely. It's been operating that way for a few hours. Heat works as usual with no change (except for some expansion) to the glycol level. I just sent an email to Alde to get their thoughts on why they require 7.5" above the furnace and if it's absolutely necessary. Fingers crossed. If allowed, it's a much cleaner installation.

DougH

@AnOldUR Excellent. Will be interesting to see what they say.

The only other question I had was whether the rear overhead cabinets needed some support from below.  Were the pieces with the USB and 12V power sockets helping support those cabinets?  If there's a structural member or two that goes side to side across the bottom of those cabinets, maybe a 3/4" or 1" beautiful hardwood accent piece could be placed flat on both side walls to act as additional support... without significantly cutting into your sleeping room.  That's if you're concerned how well the cabinets are screwed into the aluminum roof framing or side framing.

ScottG

@DougH, I can't answer your question with certainty, but I can say that earlier T@Bs (including my 2015) lack the side enclosures connecting the rear deck to the upper cabinets. My cabinets have stayed nicely in place now for over six years.

AnOldUR

@DougH ... I agree with @ScottG ... The way the upper unit is stepped forward from the lower unit, it provides little support and if any, only at the very back and only at the two ends. I'll try to take a closer look behind the speakers, but would guess that the upper unit is held in place by the roof struts that hold the ceiling panels in place. The face panel around the lower self/storage appears to be cosmetic.

AnOldUR

Still have a lot of loose ends to tie up, but the bulk of the work is done. The mattress is a 6" thick full size with 2" of gel-infused memory foam and 4" of high-density foam. Should be roomy and comfy. It was a tight squeeze length wise, but the 75" did make it into the 71" inside width of the T@B. I may cut it down to make it easier to make the bed. We used some pillows that we had for the table bench seats, but will look for something better. Overall, happy with the results.