Switching to New Rhomar Glycol

Dutch061

Black, because I wanted to tape over the reflectix that I insulated the exposed plumbing with. Wanted it to blend in like the OEM black piping. It was much more difficult to remove the tape than putting it on too.

Brad

CanadianTabber

fstop32

@Slackers, you took the question right of the tip of my brain! 8^ D

bergger

Well I finally did the switch to Rhomar the other day.  I'm so happy to get that monkey off my back.  It took me longer that I anticipated, about 3 hours or so.  But part of that was due to my screw up early on which required me to go to the store and get more distilled water.  Overall I would say it was pretty simple and the next time I replace it with more Rhomar it will be even easier.  I used the method @Dutch061 used with the addition of a partial drain.  I did not plan on draining any of it but after I introduced air in the lines I figured I might as well just drain first.

Materials used:  12v pump from amazon $12, 15 gallons of distilled water $20, 20 feet of clear 1/2" tubing $13.99, 4 gallons of Rhomar @ $26.99/gal ($107.96) for a total of $153.95.  I did not check the cost of my local dealer but I'm sure that's hundreds less than they would charge.  

I filled a bucket with 5 gallons of distilled water and dropped in the pump with the tubing inserted that into the outlet portion of the reservoir.  The other 1/2 of my tubing was connected to my shop vac and then just inserted into the reservoir near the return side.  This tube I would pull in and out of the reservoir to vac out the fluid as needed.  I had my wife work the switches on the vac and pump.  It would be difficult to do it by yourself.  After 5 gallons of water were introduced to the system and vacuumed out I decided to stop and see how things looked.  The water being sucked out definitely looked clearer but I was not convinced the Century was out yet.  

Prior to starting I uncovered all the bleeder valves on my trailer.  Our 2021 400 has 4 that I have located.  The one in the back corner by the bed has a 12-16" extension tube on it as does the one behind the door side dinette seat.  I opened those two up and they were still full of Century fluid.  This is where I realized I kinda screwed up.  The tube introducing the water to the system to push out the Century was not seated into the outflow of the reservoir.  I was simply sucking diluted Century and water back out of the reservoir.  I had also let the tank completely drain introducing a significant amount of air into the lines.  At this point I then decided to drain the system from under the trailer.  This resulted in about a gallon of Century coming out.  This also confirmed I was not pushing the Century out.  This is the point I then had to go to the store and get more water.  

On the second attempt to flush I actually removed the glycol tank from the wall.  I found this to be key in allowing me to push the tube deep enough into the outflow line.  On the 400 it  is only 3 screws and with a little contortion of the neck you can look down the tank and place the hose into the appropriate side.  I then did the same procedure.  I ended up pushing another 10 gallons of water through the system.  I also had the Alde pump turned up to 5 and running on Cont. to help out.  I would periodically stop the process to refill the bucket with water and to also check all the bleeder valves.  I opened each one until clear water was coming out.  This indicated to me the system was full of water and the Century was removed.  

I then did the same procedure by replacing the water in the bucket with Rhomar.  I introduced the Rhomar and vacuumed out the water, stopping to open bleeder valves to see what came out.  I ended up using just a hair over 3.5 gallons of Rhomar.  I also took a glass of pure Rhomar and then a glass of Rhomar from the bleeder valves to compare the color of the two.  After feeling confident that I had replaced the water with Rhomar in my system (the color was spot on after 3 color tests) I let the pump run and finished bleeding the air out of the lines.  Most of the air was collected in the bathroom bleeder and especially the bleeder tube in the bedroom.  That is the first bleeder after the pump and seems to collect the most air in my trailer.  I had heard of nightmares with airlocks but I found the bleeding process fairly simple as long as you know how to access all of them.   I then turned on the heat and let it run for about an hour.  I checked each radiator and all of them were nice and hot.   

So imo the keys to doing it this way are to remove the reservoir from the wall so you can ensure you get the tube down into the line.  This is keuy as it allows the water or Rhomar to be pumped down into the line and not just into the reservoir.  Also turn the pump on 5 to help move stuff.  Have a second person to work the switches for you.  And definitely open all your bleeders periodically during he process to check the progress of the fluid replacement and to bleed air out at the end.   Next time I'll probably just gravity drain again since I had no problems bleeding the air out. 

Here is the reservoir after the switch.



The final color comparison.  The sample from the bottle is on the right with the label the left is a sample from the bleeder tubes.



This is the bleeder tube behind the bed where I removed much of the air bubbles.  



Sorry for the long winded message but just wanted to document my experience for others.  It honestly was not as hard as I thought.  More intimidating than anything.  But as soon as I bought this trailer and lost confidence with my dealer before I left the lot I have decided to learn as much as I can and just try to fix things as much as possible.  Next is I have to learn how to service my wheel bearings.  

Oh yeah, interesting observation was when I first checked the bleeder tube back by the bed and behind the dinette I noticed Century fluid collecting in a congealed state.  It was like a plug in the tube but eventually broke up and came out.  Not sure it that has anything to do with the corrosion issues or not.  

qhumberd

Thanks @bergger for sharing and each experience we all learn a bit more about this process. Interesting the number of bleeder valves in your 2021 versus my 2019 (I found only one in the bath). Seems like the Alde installations are a work in progress for NuCamp. Also the flushing process for me was much easier with the tubes for flush and recovery seated in the hoses at the reservoir, and the pump pulled from one bucket and filled a waste bucket with the return hose. With a switch on the pump it only took one person. It took a LOT of water followed by distilled to flush mine to clear and I did not make a switch to Rhomar at this change. I did a gravity drain first and that helped. Looking forward to seeing how this Rhomar works out for for everyone. I'd like to keep my T@B for quite a few years and the Alde is a big plus.

bergger

After I ended up doing a gravity drain I considered removing the reservoir as you did and attaching the tubes directly to the lines.  But it's pretty tight in the window cubby and I was worried about getting it re-attached.  The method I used ended up working but not as efficiently as how you did it. 

@qhumberd have you checked each radiator to look for a bleeder valve?  Ours has one on the one behind the bed (at the end by the tv), one on the radiator in the kitchen (end under the sink), one on the radiator behind the door side dinette seat, and the one in the bathroom.  I could access the one behind the bed just by reaching down, where the heat comes out, and pulling the tube up.  To access the bleeder tube in the dinette I had to remove the bench panel then pull it out.  

It's possible they did not add more bleeders until after 2019.  I do know it the 2022 400 I looked at they also added a tube to the bleeder valve under the kitchen sink.  The tubes do make it easier to access them.  I had to remove the protective panel under the sink to access that valve on mine.  

Denny16

The 2018/2019 does not have a bleeder tube/valve in the galley sink area.  I believe from what our nüCamp tech told us, the 2018/2019 TaB400s only have the one bleeder valve in the washroom heat convector before returning to the glycol to the reservoir.

Here is a 2018 galley sink with under cabinet removed:

The red arrow points to the Alde line coming from the convector behind the galley cabinet (stainless pipe) and makes the turn to go under the door jam (another stainless pipe).  No bleeder tube/valve here, as it would be where the pipe attaches to the 90-degree hose.
Cheers 

bergger

The bleeder valve on the convectors in our 2021 are all mounted right at the ends of the convectors, with the exception of the one in the bathroom.  That one is on the high point just below the shower mixer.  Here is a photo of the bleeder in our galley area.  The 2022 is the same except they added the same extension tube that is on the bleeders in our bedroom and behind the dinette.  That allows the bleeder to be accessed without removing the protective panel.  A nice touch on the 2022. 

I wonder if they added extra bleeders to the later models due to problems bleeding air out?  Or is it possible they are just so hidden like mine that you have to really dig to find them? 

Bleeder is behind this panel directly below the sink.




Panel removed exposing the bleeder. 

Sharon_is_SAM

Maybe they have found the extra bleeders enhance emptying the system of glycol?

qhumberd

I was not able to do any disassembly prior to my flush and refill so relied on what others had found. So I presume my 2019 has only one bleed point as @Denny16 mentioned. That did not pose a problem with air in the lines during my flush however as the pump at 5 cleared the system of air and my unit worked fine with not issues now almost a year later. I was quite concerned about pulling the hose off the reservoir as others have noted the attachment points can get brittle and break or crack. Using the stopper method that @gregndeb and @ScottG described is an alternative if you can get access in your reservoir. I am glad I did mine myself as I could see how an  RV dealer tech with perhaps limited experience could hurry the procedure and not do a complete flush, or leave the system with air in the lines. I am glad to see the Rhomar seems to be coming down in price. What are folks paying for a gallon now?

bergger

I agree with you and am also glad I did it myself. I feel more confident it was done correctly. But I guess time will tell! I paid $26.99 a gallon about a month or so ago. But the salesperson told me I bought a the right time because NuCamp was raising the price and it would be going up to closer to $50 a gallon! But I have not called them to check if that actually happened. 

johnfconway

Anyone know if the bleeder valve configuration on 2020 T@B 400 is same as 2019, 2021 or different entirely. Thank you!

Also, @bergger, are you powering the 12V pump from vehicle battery or somewhere within T@B's 12V system?

Denny16

John, The 2018/2019 TaB400 only has the one bleeder valve on the washroom heater/convector unit.  Not sure when, but a second bleeder locstion was added under the galley round sink cabinet, coming out from the divider on the right back side.  Then one was added behind the rear bunk, against the back, which you need to pull out from behind the bunk between the center and pax side.  You need to look and see where the bleeder valve locations are on your TaB, some changes were added mid run, so not completely by year model.  

Cheers 

bergger

@johnfconway the pump I got can be purchased with either a 12v socket plug or alligator clips.  I got the one with a 12v socket and ran it from my Jackery power station.  You could also power it from the 12v socket in the trailer if you wanted. 

johnfconway

Nothing like inflation without justification! Rhogard RTU 50 is either sold by gallon and ridiculously high priced or, if you are lucky, can be purchased in 5 gallon bucket from supplier in a reasonable driving radius. We are not lucky!

I did find a source online that will deliver. It is Rhogard, but the formulation is for their specific boilers. If diluted by 20%, it's a close match with the RTU 50 (-26 freeze protection). Price is $201 for 5 gals. delivered. Has anyone diluted a more concentrated version of this product?

johnfconway

Learned that Rhogard can be formulated  as "Ultra" (94%), Regular (-60 degrees F) and RTU (Ready to Use). AC Wholesalers https://www.acwholesalers.com/ will sell regular formulation to non-HVAC contractors and ship. 5 gallons is $144 and with shipping/taxes comes to $197. Do need to dilute it 20%. Once diluted, it comes in at $31.52 per gallon.

qhumberd

@johnfconway I also researched at the Rhoguard website and compared the SDS sheets. The alde branded appears identical to original Rhoguard but is slightly more diluted. 50:50 vs 60:40.

I had not called my Nashville distributor yet but will price the 5 gal size they have. Good to know some will sell to individuals.

https://www.remichel.com/WebServices/Catalog/SearchResults/SelectProduct

johnfconway

Denny16 said:

The 2018/2019 does not have a bleeder tube/valve in the galley sink area.  I believe from what our nüCamp tech told us, the 2018/2019 TaB400s only have the one bleeder valve in the washroom heat convector before returning to the glycol to the reservoir.

Here is a 2018 galley sink with under cabinet removed:

The red arrow points to the Alde line coming from the convector behind the galley cabinet (stainless pipe) and makes the turn to go under the door jam (another stainless pipe).  No bleeder tube/valve here, as it would be where the pipe attaches to the 90-degree hose.
Cheers 

Wish I had found this older thread earlier today. After tearing the trailer half apart, it is fair to say the 2020, like @Denny16's 2018/2019, has only the bleeder valve under the shower. No need looking for the plastic tubes with bleeder valves on the end as with @bergger's 2021. Not sure what this portends for fluid exchange day on Wednesday.

I will say the $%#@* 3-way frig haunts me 2 years after its removal. There is precious little workspace with glycol reservoir in the driver's side front cubby!

GregChris

Nucamp will flush and change Alde fluid for $345 at Ucamp 23. If there are any open spots left.

johnfconway

One last question before tacking this tomorrow. Is 1/2" OD tubing used because that is the inside diameter of the Alde lines?

Discovered the Amazon DC pump end is 1/2" OD not 3/8". Fortunately I discovered I had 10' of 1/2" ID tubing for something else, so I can get a tight fit adapting to the 1/2" OD tubing I bought for the project.

johnfconway

qhumberd said:

I missed this photo to see connection from plastic hoses to Alde black hose. In a Homer Simpson moment, I proved a tape connection does not work well. Will be off to Ace this afternoon for elbow adapters and hose clamps. While most of the glycol is in the shop vac, the leakage really made a mess. Never use air conditioner anyway, but it will need substantial drying before sending 120V to it. D'Oh!

qhumberd

@johnfconway As I recall those were 1/2 to 3/4 PEX adapters and I enlarged the 3/4 end with a couple of wraps of duct tape to get a snug fit as the Alde hose ID is 22MM. That plus the screw clamps worked well with my little submersible pump. My Homer Simpson moment was almost reversing the in and out sides. The short stub from reservoir is the return to Alde (hence my clear flush fluid going in) and the longer stub is the return to the reservoir (which is still yellow at this point in the flush).  Good luck.

johnfconway

qhumberd said:

@johnfconway As I recall those were 1/2 to 3/4 PEX adapters and I enlarged the 3/4 end with a couple of wraps of duct tape to get a snug fit as the Alde hose ID is 22MM. That plus the screw clamps worked well with my little submersible pump. My Homer Simpson moment was almost reversing the in and out sides. The short stub from reservoir is the return to Alde (hence my clear flush fluid going in) and the longer stub is the return to the reservoir (which is still yellow at this point in the flush).  Good luck.

Somehow or another the plumbing guy at local Ace put together two elbow reducers with crimped ends that I was able to force on (close enough to metric). Alde hose end is 1" OD and  transfer hose end is 1/2" OD. Had to buy 10' of 1/2" ID plastic hose. Now I am set for the long haul. Yet another incentive to stay healthy and alive to realize value of investment(s)!

johnfconway

I'm pretty sure Alde fluid is successfully changed. Circulating pump sounded fine and only a little air from sole bleeder under shower. I wonder if the automatic bleeder with non-return valve after the boiler does all the heavy bleeding?

Speaking of blood, this job rated a 4 of 10 on the how-much-will-I-bleed scale. The blood on the window frame is head and the lower blood is back of the hand. I really blew it by not doing my homework and buying a trailer with 3-way frig for high desert conditions.

johnfconway

Am writing up directions for next change 2 years from now. I see references to rubber stoppers with "toilet tubing".

Given I hope to never again remove and put back the reservoir and already have DC pump and plastic tubing, will the right sized rubber stopper sit firmly in reservoir bottom holes to create seal?

With the cubby setup, then drill hole in stopper sized for copper tubing with 1/2" OD. Bend copper 90 degrees so 3 - 4 inches are down in Alde line and another 3 - 4 inches are in cubby. Attach 1/2" ID plastic lines to 1/2" OD copper. Clamp if needed. Use shop vac on "out" line and pump on "in" line. Pull through 3.5 gallons fresh Rhomar (marked in shop vac). Disconnect. Then use Alde circulator pump to equilibrate new Rhomar and bleed out air.

Slackers

Glad to learn this wasn't a scene from The Shining and you merely made the requisite blood sacrifice for a successful effort.

Krampatt

Can anyone tell me how much the RhoGuard brand - RG-RTU-50 costs per gallon? And is it only available via the distribution centers listed on http://rhomarwater.com/Where_to_Buy.html? And thank you all for the great information you've provided. I'm thinking I can do this because of all that you shared here.
____________
2023 Tab 320S BD
Tow: 2023 Ford Ranger

pthomas745

Welcome to the Forums. 

Alde and NuCamp stopped all mention of "Rhogard" practically instantly after mentioning the changeover back in Dec 2020.  Hardly anyone has ever been able to actually order or buy that product by that name except the few examples in this thread. 

Eventually, in the last year or so, the "Alde Truma" glycol has shown up on Amazon, which is the suggested product.  Most likely Rhogard repackaged and marked up.  And, up! You should be able to purchase "Alde Truma" glycol from a dealer that can order it for you or maybe even NuCamp if you give them a call.

If you do manage to purchase the elusive "Rhogard", please let us know.

https://www.amazon.com/Truma-Resistance-Components-Conditions-Eco-Friendly/dp/B0C7J6WBRP

PS: it looks like the DIY Glycol exchange process is getting popular.  Note the "Frequently Bought Together" section now includes the transfer pump suggested in the DIY File!

Denny16

@Krampatt the  the RhoGuard brand - RG-RTU-50 is a commercial product, sold in minimum 5-gallon containers.  Dealers get 1-gallon bottles from nüCamp, at a reasonable cost.  You need to order or get this from a nüCamp dealer.  For the commercial product, try plumbing supply companies that specialize in hydronic heating systems.  Personally, I would just go with the repackaged Rhomar glycol from nüCamp.
cheers

Krampatt

Denny16 said:

@Krampatt the  the RhoGuard brand - RG-RTU-50 is a commercial product, sold in minimum 5-gallon containers.  Dealers get 1-gallon bottles from nüCamp, at a reasonable cost.  You need to order or get this from a nüCamp dealer.  For the commercial product, try plumbing supply companies that specialize in hydronic heating systems.  Personally, I would just go with the repackaged Rhomar glycol from nüCamp.
cheers

Thanks Denny16. I appreciate the guidance.