Switching to New Rhomar Glycol

Denny16

That is a good question, and one that was not made clear.  One statement is the water tank is stainless steel, and the glycol tank is aluminum, so one conclusion is the two are separate, and are next to each other to transfer heat, or they share a common wall, thst is either one or the other?

Cheers

N7SHG_Ham

I confirmed today that Alde branded glycol sold in USA at least is the Rhomar fluid, at least currently.

Denny16

Yes, Alde changed to Rhomar last January.
cheers

N7SHG_Ham

@Denny16 true story, but I confirmed the stuff you get in an Alde bottle is the same as the stuff in a Rhomar bottle (or bucket). I don't think Alde branded fluid was ever the Century fluid, nor did other makes use Century, Airstreams for instance I think used something else. I now believe, at least in USA, all OEM's are using same stuff.

Denny16

Yes, I have a gallon bottle of the previous nüCamp supplied OEM glycol left over from our glycol change last July, and it is a yellow greenish color, and labeled nuCamp Alde Glycol, no Century label on it, (but it probably is Century TF-1, looks the same).  Previous owner had topped off the glycol system in 2019 with Century glycol.  This was drained and flushed out, and the nüCamp OEM glycol put in last July (2020).
cheers

ScottG

My recollection was that the recommendation to use Century TF-1 transfer fluid (the greenish-yellow stuff) came directly from Alde, and was the only fluid approved by Alde for use in north American units.

It's likely that nuCamp stocked TF-1 in bulk but filled gallon jugs on demand and stuck their own label on it. If that was indeed not the Century product--or if other Alde customers like Airstream were using a different product--than somethin' fishy was going on.

Verna

NüCamp had a 55 gallon drum with the Century brand of glycol, the last time I was in the factory. The container was equipped with a hose system so that the workers could fill the gallon jugs for those who ordered it. It was confirmed many times in the 2015/16 timeframe that the product nüCamp used was indeed the Century product, pre-diluted and we were not to dilute it further. There was some confusion early on about whether it was diluted or not, but it was clarified by the factory as already being diluted. 

The factory also verified that the century product sold on Amazon was exactly the same as what was shipped in the gallon jugs from the factory. 

For those who are curious, search Glycol in the 2015/16 timeframe on the forum. 

RCB

If you read the Nu- Calgon literature, it refers to a flushing solutions that remove existing scale and contaminants. With the Rhomar product, I found no mention of a flushing solution. The water flush will only remove the existing glycol and not much of the accumulation of crystals we’ve seen in the posted photos.
We have seen where crystals have formed between the hose and aluminum connector pipe. So there must be microscopic channels between the crystals to allow further penetration and by the new fluid. To do the job properly all rubber hose to convectors connections must be opened cleaned and refastened with better hose clamps. Access to the convectors without disassembling the trailer would appear to be huge job let alone completely draining the system first.
Before switching fluids, more information is needed. Is there a way to clean the system without total disassembly ?

Comments mention that the Rhomar fluid is only required after a 2020 date. This suggests there has been a manufacturing change in some materials previously used in the Alde components which are now not protected by the Century product. Perhaps construction of the tank has changed.

Denny16

Thanks Verna for clarifying the glycol info.   I was not trying to imply the nüCamp provided glycol was not Century TF-1, but just not labeled as such.  I edited my post to reflect this.   My point was, the glycol was the approved OEM, nüCamp provided glycol (Century TF-1), and thus safe to use in systems made before Jan 2021.  My post was in reply to N7SHG_Ham’s comment about Airstream and nüCamp not using Century TF-1 fluid, which was incorrect, as you pointed out.

Cheers

db_cooper

@RCB ,  it's not too huge a job for someone with minor mechanical skills, at least for the 320.  Finding out how easy it is to drain by disconnecting the hose near the Alde and blowing through it was the game changer for me.  Getting the hose clips Alde uses off of the hoses was a pain for the rear connectors; I had already planned to replace them with screw type hose clamps before I saw the damage.  I've been picking at this project a few hours each day for 3 or 4 days, and would be done if I hadn't had the glycol tank come apart on me.  

I would strongly recommend for those that can to add a second hose clamp as close to the end of the connectors as possible now, if they haven't had any bulging yet.  And if you have one connector bulging, you probably need to look at all of them.  I only had one end of one radiator that didn't need some type of repair.

tybladesmith

Rhomar Water Instructions for using their cleaner before first use of a Rhomar Water product. Notice, the cleaner cleans and passivates the metals for increased corrosion protection over the RG-RTU alone.

tteam

I had read that the change over to the new fluid could be done every five years.  Did I read correctly that Alde recommends still changing the fluid every two years?  My dealer told me the cost for them to do the change is about $400.  

Denny16

Sounds about right, the first change over to the new glycol is more involved,than the every two year change, once you make the switch.  The old Century fluid needs to be throughly flushed out with distilled water, and Airstream is recommending using a hydronic system flush cleaning fluid, HydroSolv 9100, which adds to the time required to switch over to the new Rhomar fluid. After the initial change over, you just drain and replace the fluid.  The five year cycle I believe refers to the glycol system flush out treatment, to remove the white deposits owners of older Alde systems are finding in their glycol lines.
cheers

Bayliss

@tteam, there is a five-year corrosion protection glycol ("Alde Premium Glycol G-13") used in European Alde systems, but it is not allowed to be used in the United States.

tteam

Thanks, so a two year change, and given Denny16's comment at year five you need another complete flush. Which too bad is not six years.

Bayliss

Actually, @tteam, I am not aware of a "five-year-flush."  As I explained above, the "five years" has to do with the glycol that is allowed for use in Europe, but NOT in the United States.

Regardless, if you are going to switch from the Century Glycol (i.e. "Century TF-1 Transfer Fluid"), which is yellow in color and is what was used in pre-2021 T@B Alde systems, to the new Rhomar Water, then you need to do a complete and thorough flush of the system.  Rhomar recommends their "Hydro-Solv 9100 Cleaner" when you do the first flush of the system prior to re-filling with the Rhomar Water.  That should flush out any of the bad stuff (contaminants) left behind by the old glycol.

If you continue to use the Century Glycol, then it is recommended that you flush out the old glycol with distilled water prior to refilling the system with new Century Glycol.  There are some recent ongoing discussion threads discussing Rhomar Water, changing out the Alde fluid, and corrosion issues that a few owners have discovered in the area of the convector connections.  To get up to speed on those topics, and more, you might want to review those discussions and bookmark them for future reference (i.e., click on the small star at the upper right corner of each discussion thread.)  There is plenty to read and learn about all things Alde on this forum.  

The key takeaway for me is that the Rhomar Water (which nuCamp is using on all 2021 and later model T@B trailers) has additives that will provide anti-corrosion protection of the aluminum elements of the Alde system.  Therefore, I think the trend is that folks are strongly considering flushing out the old glycol and replacing it with Rhomar Water.  I don't think it is an urgent issue, but something to be aware of, particularly in light of the corrosion concerns.  Regardless of which glycol you decide to use, Alde and nuCamp still recommend replacing the glycol every two years.  I have not specifically looked at whether you need to flush out the system with distilled water each time you replace the Rhomar Water on subsequent/future glycol exchanges, so that is something for you will want to confirm if you tackle a glycol exchange at some point.  I'm sure there is an answer to that specific question.  I just have not specifically looked for it.

N7SHG_Ham

RCB said:

Comments mention that the Rhomar fluid is only required after a 2020 date. This suggests there has been a manufacturing change in some materials previously used in the Alde components which are now not protected by the Century product. Perhaps construction of the tank has changed.

But Airstream is replacing the fluid in older models too; "Airstream and Alde are promoting a Technical Service Bulletin to replace the glycol in 2018, 2019 and early 2020 Classics to a new Alde fluid." That doesn't seem to indicate a component change recently that requires a different fluid. Given the corrosion folks are starting to find, my guess is the Century fluid was not protecting the aluminium and thus the change to a Rhomar product that hopefully will.

I am due for a change, so will flush and replace with Rhomar, not a whole lot more effort than replacing with Century.

Denny16

I got the five year flush out cycle from the “Hydro-Solv 9100 Cleaner” instructions, which was a recommendation to keep the system free from contaminates.  I do not see much difference in doing it in six years with a normal glycol change.  Also Century TF has anti-corrosion additives, which loose their effectiveness after two years in the Alde system.  As to which one is better, too early to tell at this point.  But the Rhomar is being recommended for new systems, so must have better anti-corrosion additives.  

I think doing the Hydro-Solv 9100 Cleaner flush on a five or six year cycle will help prolong the system life and keep corrosion from occurring to the point of causing the damage recently bing reported on 2015/2015 TaBs.
cheers

Bayliss

@Denny16, thank you for the clarification on the 5-year flush.  I do not see that on the Hydro-Solv description sheet (copy is attached.)  Can you point me to where you saw the 5-year flush-out cycle information?

Also, one thing for everyone to be aware of is that the Hydro-Solv 9100 instructions state that:

"For Existing Aluminum Boilers:  Cleaning time should be limited to 8 hours when circulating through an aluminum boiler.  This restriction can be avoided by bypassing the boiler.  After cleaning, be sure to flush the system with makeup water until the fluid pH is 8.0 or below.  This will help to ensure that all of the old fluid and cleaning solution are removed.  (NOTE:  The low pH range will be limited to makeup water pH.)  NOTE:  Heating the system to operating temperature will improve results.)"

Seems a little odd to bypass the boiler if you are trying to clean out all the old glycol and deposits throughout the system, but I suppose you could first thoroughly flush the entire system (i.e., lines, boiler and expansion tank) with distilled water, and then bypass the boiler while circulating the Hydro-Solv 9100 through the lines.  Regardless, If you are going the Rhomar Water route, you definitely want to read the directions for cleaning the system so you do it right.

Denny16

Bayliss, I thought it was on the info sheet, but might have been an Airstream recommendation, which I was also reviewing when I saw the info on the flush solution.
cheers

pthomas745

Someone mentioned the G-13 for European systems.  It isn't used in US Aldes because it is ethylene glycol, not propylene glycol.

https://www.leisureshopdirect.com/blog/gs-13-antifreeze-advice-from-alde-what-is-antifreeze-and-how-can-it-be-replaced

Although, honestly, the endless smokescreens sent up over simple chemicals that have been used for years and years is just ridiculous.  So, G-13 may not be the same as GS-13, so good luck trying to find an easy answer! Rhomar is likely to be hard to find and quite expensive.  (See post below for better Rhomar information!)

Denny16

Well it turns out Rhomar fluid is readily available, even in rural Montana, per BrodgerSunset , who,posted this in the Alde Rhomar Not a Recall thread:
“ For a point of reference, I bought a 5 gallon jug of Rhomar (Rhogard RTU 50) a few weeks ago at a distributor up here (Northwest Pipe Fittings) @ $17 a gallon. 

Rhomar Water, which is Rhogard RTU50 is not thst new, and is used in home hydronic heating systems, is and is available from plumbing supply sources.  It is less per gallon than Century TF-1.  I assume nüCamp will be stocking Rhomar to use in their new builds, and it should be available for dealers to order.
cheers

pthomas745

@Denny16 Thanks, I'll amend my post!

Denny16

No worries, good luck getting them Rhomar fluid, might as well get five gallons, I think you are going to need around four gallons to exchange the fluid in the Alde on a TaB400.  This gives you a gallon left to top off the system for the next two years.
cheers

tteam

My dealer, said they can do the flush and refill, so I will take it there. Thanks. 

Denny16

That is the best way to go tteam. 

For anyone else wanting to know where to buy Rhomar fluid, click on your state here: http://rhomarwater.com/Where_to_Buy.html
and a list of dealers in your region will pop up.
cheers

Freespirit

I have been reading the discussions on the forum related to: Switching to New Rhomar Glycol, Changing out the Alde fluid, and Corrosion of Alde Convectors and find them very informative being the new owner of a 2020 T@B 320 U. This unit was purchased in October of 2020, the manufacture date is November 2019. 

First question: Does the 2 year recommended fluid change begin with manufacture date or my purchase date?  I would think it would begin on or around the manufacture date of November 2019, since use/non-use does not seem to be a determining factor with corrosion. One year of “protection” was squandered on the dealers lot. 

Second question: With all the detailed narrative on building your own system to drain and flush the system, I will likely undertake the process to change over to the new Rhomar Glycol. However I am having trouble determining how to properly capture/dispose of a minimum of 35 gallons of glycol/water to potentially as much as 50 gallons, ( 3 gallons of Century, 15 gallons of distilled water to flush remaining Century out, 3 gallons of Rhomar Hydro-Solv Boiler Treatment, 15 gallons of distilled water to flush Treatment ). The additional 15 gallons would be my “just make sure” every thing is clean lagniappe. 

Thoughts?
cheers

Denny16

For Q-1, the two year clock on the Alde fluid is from the date the fluid was first installed, so your date of manufacture.

Q-2, if you are going to use the Hydro-Solv Boiler Treatment, a flush out with five gallons of water will replace and flush out the three gallons of Century fluid.  After the flush, you could blow out the system with low pressure air to finish removing the flush fluid, then give it several 5-gallon flushes.  You need to collect the Century fluid you drain out, again a low pressure blow out would get it out.  

A 5-gallon bucket or two would work to collect the stuff and a two or three gallon water rinse.  After that a second rise if like, this water could be poured down a drain system safely, as very little glycol would remain in it.  Collect the Hydro-Solv Boiler Treatment flush and subsequent rise, then a second rinse and Bob’s your uncle... 
cheers

Sharon_is_SAM

This is from a different thread.  Thought I would copy and throw it in here since I don’t think anyone has discussed disposal of the glycol.

This is from the Century Transfer Fluid Safety Data Sheet:

· 6.2 Environmental precautions: Do not allow to enter sewers/ surface or ground water.

· 13.1 Waste treatment methods · Recommendation

Can be burned with household garbage after consulting with the waste disposal facility operator and the pertinent authorities and adhering to the necessary technical regulations.

Small amounts may be diluted with plenty of water and washed away. Dispose of larger amounts in accordance with Local Authority requirements.

The user of this material has the responsibility to dispose of unused material, residues and containers in compliance with all relevant local, state and federal laws and regulations regarding treatment, storage and disposal for hazardous and nonhazardous wastes. Residual materials should be treated as hazardous.

Not sure what they call small amounts.   

You can call your local waste facility and see if they offer a household hazardous waste disposal.

I contacted nuCamp and they barrel it up and take it to a waste disposal plant and treat it just like auto AF.  We should, too.

RCB

Jeez Louise, now I need an empty barrel ! Ain’t technology fun. I’m not sure it is necessary to flush with the treatment unless your system is say 5 yrs or older and/or shows signs of crystals.