Batteries get neglected when running the heater on electricity

CruiserCamperChris

Ive been running the Alde Heater on shore power 2k the last few days and it has been in the 20s here in Dallas. Have used much of the lights, and the pump and fan not at all. Just the fridge. The battery has gone from 12.6, to 12.4 to 12.2 and now at 12.1 over a 72 hour time period. We have had no sunshine to speak of. So i am guessing that the fridge and heater get first dibs at the electricity, and the batteries get what little is left over? In the real world, camping with shore power, i would have to cut off the heater for a few hours every day and suffer the cold on cloudy days? Or hook up the TV , crank up the engine? Or maybe go to LP heat? Any other ideas?

mona

Did you switch the battery disconnect so you are not cutting off the battery? The battery cannot charge if it is cut off. 

CruiserCamperChris

No, i did not cut off the battery. And, i believe you are mistaken. The battery can receive a charge from solar panels when they are cut off. Maybe i should cut off the battery when i am on shore power and there is no sun. That would save them.

mona

You are correct. The solar will charge the battery when the battery is cut off, but only if you have sun. The converter should be charging the battery if plugged into shore power, no matter what you have running. Make sure you are running frig on electric, and not on battery. 

bergger

Yes make sure the fridge is on AC power and not 12V power.  Your battery should not get depleted when on shore power.  Do not disconnect the battery when on shore power.   It should be getting charged by the converter as mona stated.  

ScottG

I'm not real familiar with the current 400 configuration, but I agree this is not a normal situation. Something is either drawing your battery down, or the battery is faulty. (Inability to take or hold a charge are common symptoms of a compromised battery.)

CruiserCamperChris

Everything has been on electric, fridge, etc, while on shore power. AC has been off. Only using Alde heater on electric. The sun is out today and it is already back up to 12.68 in just a couple of hours. But still wonder why batteries went down.

pthomas745

The first question: how are you measuring your battery? A battery that is "in use" when you are trying to measure the voltage state of charge will always read low.  Unless you had the trailer unplugged and the battery switch off, and no charge coming from the panel, the reading you are getting for voltage is "false capacity".

The picture on the left is the Victron screen shot of the trailer with the fan at half speed, battery switch on, no extra power coming into the trailer:  12.09, or "only" 50 percent of my lead acid battery. (This is the "false capacity" reading.)  The picture on the right is the measurement with the trailer battery switch off, after "resting" the battery for about 10 minutes.  The battery has "settled down" and given me a more accurate reading of 12.46, or more than 85 percent of charge.

CruiserCamperChris

@pthomas745 thank you so very much for taking the time to explain this with screenshots. I was reading it with one power draw, an led voltage meter in the “cigarette lighter” under the dinette table. And the batteries were switched on. Next time I will measure exactly as you say.

Denny16

With your batteries under a load, you will be measuring the voltage drop caused by that load, and not the actual battery voltage.  Same goes for the Victron App, it will show the voltage going to/from the batteries whilst being charged by solar, and not the actual battery voltage.  

Cheers 

pthomas745

Have you found the Victron app?  With factory solar, the Victron controller provides battery info over bluetooth to your phone.

https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-systems-remote-monitoring/victronconnect

CruiserCamperChris

Oh yes, I use it. Love it. I like glancing at the LED read out that is always on.

[Deleted User]

I think this was said above (just scanned the replies) but your battery should not be discharging at all when on shore power. It should be charging in fact.  Something is amiss.  Fridge might be accidentally on battery power?

dsfdogs

Are you plugged into a 30amp outlet or a traditional 15/20 amp outlet?

AnOldUR

@dsfdogs as long as he's not tripping the breaker at the shore power panel, I don't think it would make a difference.

dsfdogs

@AnOldUR I didn't think we could run the Alde at 2k while plugged into a 20amp, plus the fridge, but if somehow that didn't trip the breaker, then my reasoning was there couldn't be much if any power leftover to charge the battery too?

CruiserCamperChris

Thanks everyone. Fridge has been on electric. Not auto. I am on a household plug. So must be a 15 not 20amp. Alde has been at 2k. Fridge is at level 3 out of 4. No lights 95% of time.of the time. Radio on a little but not much. But battery goes down with clouds and night. Up with sun. I just turned off the battery and nothing works at all. Nothing electrical. So turned it back on. No breakers have thrown off.

MuttonChops

CruiserCamperChris said:
Everything has been on electric, fridge, etc, while on shore power. AC has been off.
Only using Alde heater on electric.
The sun is out today and it is already back up to 12.68 in just a couple of hours.

CruiserCamperChris said:
. . . Fridge has been on electric. Not auto. I am
. . . on a household plug. So must be a 15 not 20amp.
. . . Alde has been at 2k. Fridge is at level 3 out of 4. No lights 95% of time.of the time. Radio on a
. . .battery goes down with clouds and night. Up with sun.
. . . just turned off the battery and nothing works at all. Nothing electrical.

My 2-Cents:   The Convertor has failed or is Off or otherwise not connected to the battery.

Observation 1:
    When trailer is on House Outlet 15/20AMP circuit with everything on the House Breaker normally trips.
    @CruiserCamperChris, house breaker is OK.  So everything is not on.

Observation 2:
     When on Shore Power or House Outlet power the 12VDC outlets normally read > 13VDC.
     That is because the Convertor is on . . . the actual voltage will very based on the 'charging stage'
     of the Convertor.
     @CruiserCamperChris, reports the trailer 12VDC outlet voltage varies with how much sunshine
          there is . . . clearly only the battery & solar panel is providing VDC . . . nothing from the
          Convertor.

Observation 3:
     When battery Cut-Off is OFF there is no 12VDC available for lights/radio/etc
     So Convertor is not on or producing 12VDC power

Possible Problem Source:

 a)   Convertor is not on.  Power Center AC Breaker has tripped or the breaker has failed.

 b)   Convertor is on however one or both of the Power Center Battery connection/charge fuses
       have failed.  These fuses Do Not Have Failed LED Indicators.
       The bottom two fuses should be removed and checked (believe one is 30A the other 40A).

 c)   The Convertor section of the Power Center has failed
       If a) & b) above appear OK.  Suggest visiting a RV Repair location to check the Power Center.
       DIY checks are possible but can become complex for the not electrical wiring comfortable.

pthomas745

Each Alde electrical element uses 7.9 amps each.  So, running with both of them on would require 15.8 amps, which would require the trailer, on shore power, to be using at least a 20 amp circuit.  (Stated in the manual and the FAQ.)  The newer Norcold fridges, according to many posts in the group, use about 1.5 or 2.0 amps on shore power.   (The is some discussion on the web about a startup surge up to 3 amps).  Adding all those up, 15.8+3.0= 18.8 amps.  You still would have a little leeway to use one of the smaller lights and fall under the 20 amp max of the shore power breaker.  On a 30 amp shore power breaker this would not be an issue at all.

Both the Alde and the fridge also run on a "duty cycle", so when they reach their target temperatures, they would shut down until power is needed to adjust the temps of the units.

Denny16

The TaB is running on AC, or the heat would not work.  What would cause the battery to go down, is the load from the Alde’s DC circuit and the lights being used.  I agree the battery is not charging.  Chris may have tripped the battery 30 amp circuit breaker next to the battery cut off switch?  This would keep the battery from charging.  (Edit missed Chris’ comment he ran lights with AC not connected.)

Cheers 

ChanW

+1 what @MuttonChops said.

If turning the battery switch off results in no 12V to your Tab, yet the shore power is connected, then the converter is not providing any power to the 12v side.

The fault is probably one of the fuses that @MuttonChops described. The breakers in the power center are only for the 120v circuits, so they can be ignored.

Edit /correction:. 
In a DM, @MuttonChops pointed out :

For the Convertor to 'convert' 120VAC Shore power to 12VDC cabin power at least two AC panel circuit breakers must be on.

The main ACV breaker (far left, 30A) and on most trailer builds the breaker just to the right of the main breaker.

That #2 location breaker is the on/off switch for the Convertor. {again on most builds, some older builds have the convertor connected to the main breaker}

@MuttonChops. Will have to check my own when it thaws out.)

MuttonChops

Denny16 said:
. . . agree the battery is not charging.
. . . Chris may have tripped the battery 30 amp circuit breaker next to the battery cut off switch?

I don't believe the 30A DCV breaker located at the battery (or fuse on some models) has tripped/blown as the cabin lights work when the Battery Cut-Off is in the On position and they do not work when the Cut-Off is in the Off position.

Power flows from battery to 30A DCV Breaker (fuse) to Cut-off switch to Power Center.
So nothing would work if the 'at battery breaker/fuse' failed ---
keeping in mind there is no Convertor output for original failure mode.

CruiserCamperChris

I will check the fuses later today and get back with you. Thank you!

CruiserCamperChris

Thank you all so much for trying to help me.

I removed and inspected all fuses. All good. No breakers were thrown. I threw all of them back and forth anyway. My breaker in the battery cut off location was not open. The light is on my charging plug and my surge protector. My Victron smart shunt app says my battery is low, @ 12.15 and not going up much at all today, because it is very cloudy today. I've turned off the fridge. Guess I will turn off the Alde heat, too. Saving my propane for next weekend.

So, it appears that I have a bad inverter. I have to take it to a RV Repair center and have it replaced. Darn. The whole unit? Or just part of it?

1. how do I go about finding the best service center? ExploreUSA? Holiday World? or an independent? 

2. we have plans to do some dry camping next weekend with several friends. Its a two hour drive. We've been tent camping for 20 years. I suppose we will arrive with a full battery. Just use the Propane heat and fridge and the LED lights, and we should be ok for two nights and days, right? Just wondering if I am not thinking of something. 

thanks again.

pthomas745

How about your Gloso breaker? Look in this thread for the "other" circuit breaker.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/12916/did-i-kill-my-batteries

Denny16

Thomas good point, and I mentioned the same, and the Glasco breaker was not open (tripped), as Chris was able to run lights with AC not connected.  He rechecked the breaker also, see above comment from me and MuttonChops.
 Cheers 

VictoriaP

(Everyone else, please correct my thinking here as I’m a little out of my depth with a 400.)

@CruiserCamperChris A couple of things to clarify: First, it’s your *converter* that’s potentially gone bad, not your inverter. They are two different devices, and you’ll want to specify the right one when calling about a repair.

Second, regarding charging before your trip. At 12.15v, you’re at 40% charge right now on those big AGM batteries. Unless you have some spectacular sun directly on that solar panel at the right angle most of the day all week, you may not be able to count on those batteries being fully charged. It takes time for that to happen. Driving will not charge them if your converter isn’t working, as current from the alternator goes through the converter. (Corrected, see post below. Two hours drive time may or may not add much charge, depending on your setup.) Solar is directly attached to the batteries and bypasses the converter.

Here’s where I’m a bit blind, because the 320 batteries are much more accessible. If you can access the battery terminals, you can charge them via a portable charger while you still have access to 120v power at home (NOCO & Schumacher make good ones). These can be attached via alligator clips, or if there’s an SAE port to attach solar panels, adapters are often available for that. This would at least put a solid charge on the batteries in the meantime. Hopefully other 400 owners can advise on the feasibility of this with your model.

As far as repairs go, I’d suggest Googling for a mobile RV repair in your area. Replacing a converter is a very common job (we likely have a few folks here who could walk you through it if you’re at all handy), but using a mobile mechanic is likely to get you on the road a lot quicker than waiting on a dealer to fix the issue. 

rfuss928

VictoriaP
The 12v line from the TV does not go through the converter.  It is a direct connection to the battery (through the 30A in-line breaker).  The TV will charge the batteries through the trailer pig tail if it is wired properly.

VictoriaP

rfuss928 said:

VictoriaP
The 12v line from the TV does not go through the converter.  It is a direct connection to the battery (through the 30A in-line breaker).  The TV will charge the batteries through the trailer pig tail if it is wired properly.

Good to know, will edit post. I’m assuming just two hours of drive time likely won’t add a ton of charge to the two big AGMs unless there’s a DC-DC charger installed though, yes?

CruiserCamperChris

Thank you VictoriaP. I was planning on adding an SAE lead to my batteries anyway. I have one on all my vehicles so that i can easily out them on trickle charge. Plus, i might want to plug in my suitcase Renogy solar panel sometimes. Thanks for straightening me out about the converter and the inverter. What is the difference? One converts from 120 to 12 and the other inverts from 12 to 120? Are they both in that big black panel near the floor that holds the breakers and fuses? I have a mobile RV repairman coming Monday.

VictoriaP

CruiserCamperChris said:

Thank you VictoriaP. I was planning on adding an SAE lead to my batteries anyway. I have one on all my vehicles so that i can easily out them on trickle charge. Plus, i might want to plug in my suitcase Renogy solar panel sometimes. Thanks for straightening me out about the converter and the inverter. What is the difference? One converts from 120 to 12 and the other inverts from 12 to 120? Are they both in that big black panel near the floor that holds the breakers and fuses? I have a mobile RV repairman coming Monday.

Oh, excellent, glad you found a repair person!

Yes, the Converter is converting 120v from your 30 amp power cord to 12v to charge your batteries.

Inverter “inverts” that process, producing 120v from your batteries for certain outlets on your trailer. As I have a 320, I’m not sure where the inverter is on a 400, but I’m sure someone else here does.