Changing out the Alde fluid.

db_cooper

Since I repaired those connections, and it will drain the tank better, I'll leave well enough alone for now.  Thanks all.

qhumberd

Horigan said:

db_cooper said:

fstop32 said:

@Tampakayaker, hope the pic helps.  I'm always big on marking things as I pull them apart 

@ScottG or others,  my T@b hoses were hooked up opposite of this picture,  the bigger and lower drain were plumbed down to the Alde and the exit drain, and the flow into the tank from the radiator went in the higher smaller  connection.  

From this picture it looks like if you drain, you would still have water pooled in the tank at that lower point?

I wonder if it really matters as long as the tank is kept at the proper level?  I don't want to go flip them around, but at this point I'm not sure who's installation is correct.

You're right that some will be left in the reservoir as shown in the picture.  I thought is should be plumbed like yours is so it drains completely.  I don't think it matters.  You might get more gurgle sounds at low levels and high pumps speeds, but at normal pump speeds it should not matter either way.

This was the same in my 2019 400 as well, and after you pull the bung below the trailer you are left with glycol still in the larger reservoir attachment. Now from looking at the diagrams of others I am not clear why that did drain when I opened the bath air bleed. I seems like it would be blocked by the check valve.

On another note I also found that the pump on the Alde Flow did not come on when I started my Alde and ran the circulation pump at 5. The Flow pump only seems to activate when you have the hot water setting at Max on the control panel, to provide more hot water for longer showers. As my unit was still winterized I did not try this, but it makes sense. So when doing a glycol exchange no need to mess with the Alde Flow pump at all it seems.

fstop32

Whew, that was close!  As I was following this I saw that pic which I provided and was reading the comments and thought 'Oh crap, I posted something backwards!'...  That pic of mine was how mine was hosed up and I was careful to document it as I pulled things apart...but that doesn't mean mine wasn't backwards.  
I thought the lower exit was there to help not suck air also and had to go back to my photos to verify.  I wonder if the extra depth in the tank at the low hanging connection helps keep the flow up into the tank from "breaking wind" and perhaps aerating the fluid???  Way above my pay grade.
Thanks for saving my bacon a bit @ScottG with that 3010 manual illustration.      

db_cooper

Sleep well @fstop32!  😁 I'm 90% sure mine was hooked up backwards to begin with, but I didn't mark it.  I also know the tank drained completely before blowing the lines and it wouldn't have if hooked up like the manual. 

I don't mind being a guinea pig in this scenario, I don't think it will matter and my system is already a bit compromised you might say.  

Have you had any success getting parts?  My "Customer Experience" so far has not been encouraging. I contacted my local dealer that has a pretty good reputation, they emailed me 2 weeks ago and said they submitted to Nucamp but it's been crickets since. I few days ago I emailed Nucamp and quickly got an email to go through a dealer.  

Hence my judicious use of JB Weld products.

fstop32

Well, I've gotten a little attention from Alde and some from nuCamp but it has been a slow painful process and I still don't have a definite answer on parts.  I didn't go to a dealer first as I've never had to use them, plus the 2 nearest are both an hour away and I didn't really want to get into my situation on the phone since I would be one of those "diy guys" and not actually paying them to fix something.  I may have to drive down to Huntsville and just see what happens, it's closer than Elkhart!

Verna

@fstop32, how close is Mount Vernon, Indiana, along the Ohio River, near Illinois and above KY?  Gerton Auto Sales is there and John is a very nice guy, plus he’s a car guy. Give him a Call to see if he’s willing to help you. He does require payment up front before ordering anything for you. Tell him Verna sent you….

fstop32

Thanks @Verna, I'll make a note of that.  It'd be 3.5 hrs to Mt. Vernon, sure beats 7.5 to Elkhart!

Denny16

qhumberd, correct, the Alde Flo only engages where the Shower mode is set on the control panel.
cheers

DanManz

So I've been following this thread for quite a while.  It has convinced me of several things: 1. Doing this fluid swap is way above my paygrade, 2. It sounds like getting rid of the old stuff is a small HAZMAT event, 3. The whole design of this system seems a little dubious regarding how difficult this is to drain, flush and service.  So I called my local dealer, who is not the one I bought our 2019 400 from.  These folks also sell/service Airstreams and seemed very familiar with the Airstream recall issue.  I asked, can you do this job on a T@b 400?  Oh yes, we can handle your T@b.  They then asked me what NuCamp was going to do about this problem.  I said, I don't know that NuCamp is doing anything about this problem.  The service manager said he was going to have their warranty department contact NuCamp.  His impression is, the Century fluid did not have adequate corrosion protection.  These systems really need to be flushed to prevent problems in the future and this should not be an owner's expense on a newer unit.  Of course this dealership can't get our T@b in until June but I will let you know then if we make any progress on getting this covered.

qhumberd

Denny16 said:

qhumberd, correct, the Alde Flo only engages where the Shower mode is set on the control panel.
cheers

Great thanks for that clarification. So when not in Shower or Max mode the glycol just flows through the Flow unit under the pressure of the circulation pump or does it not flow until the Flow pump activates? In other words is there a loop of glycol not moving in the Flow unit during the flush and fill we are doing? Just wondering how it is designed.

BrianZ

Regarding the use of dissimilar metals, here is a great article explaining in a straightforward manner how galvanic corrosion works..
https://www.ssina.com/education/corrosion/galvanic-corrosion/

This alleviates my concerns about using a stainless steel valve for the Tee connection in the hose upstream from the circulation pump; because even though the electrolytic solution path exists, there would not be any direct metal-to-metal contact with aluminum or other anodic parts that would promote corrosion, as the article explains.  It also explains that there must also be an excess of surface area of the cathodic metal (eg, stainless steel) compared to the more anodic (eg, aluminum) one, otherwise the effect would be minimal.  Examples are shown in the article.  I probably could just as well use a less expensive brass fitting, since it is closer to aluminum on their galvanic chart scale.

ScottG

Good article, @BrianZ, particularly the part about the impact of relative surface area.

I know a lot of things, but I do not know a lot of other things. 
-J.C. Mellencamp

fstop32

Yes @BrianZ, very interesting article...maybe we should start a gofundme and hire the author to do a study on Alde corrosion! 

Denny16

qhumberd said:

Denny16 said:

qhumberd, correct, the Alde Flo only engages where the Shower mode is set on the control panel.
cheers

Great thanks for that clarification. So when not in Shower or Max mode the glycol just flows through the Flow unit under the pressure of the circulation pump or does it not flow until the Flow pump activates? In other words is there a loop of glycol not moving in the Flow unit during the flush and fill we are doing? Just wondering how it is designed.

That is a good question, and after reviewing the Alde plumbing graphic, I am not sure when the Flo pump is used.  The cold water circulation is through the Flo, preheats and then goes in the main boiler and then to the hot water taps.

As for the glycol circulation, It is not as obvious, how or when the Flo pump comes on.  It does appear to be down line from the main Alde boiler to boost glycol circulation through the cabin heating elements.  Here is the diagram:

N7SHG_Ham

I have reached out to Nu-Calgon, Century, Rhomar and DOW to see if I can get corrosion test results. Nu-Calgon actually publishes those, there is a standard ASTM test for these fluids all manufacturers should have. After several days crickets from all but Nu-Calgon, who recommended a specific fluid for use with aluminum.

The sauce is generally a secret it seems, but the test results shouldn't be, if we can get standard test results from different fluids, it should show how well each protects aluminum.

As mentioned, so far Nu-calgon seems the most transparent of the several I have contacted.

Century is also recommended brand for Aqua Hot and maybe other hydronic heating systems, I wonder if they are having issues with other brands of hardware besides Alde?

As far as availability, still looking at that, but it seems almost all except Century and some Nu-calgon products are only available at HVAC commercial supply houses. Unfortunately the recommended Nu-calgon product for aluminum seems to not be available online. There are several supply houses for both Rhomar and Nu-Calgon within 30 miles, so if they will sell to non contractors, the source issue may be moot.

ScottG

@Denny16 (and others), do you know how much glycol capacity the Alde Flow adds to the system? I've heard the 400 takes about 3 gallons (vs. ~2 for the 320) but I'm not sure if that includes the Flow or not. Weren't those added only to later 400s? I haven't followed 400 specs that closely...

qhumberd

ScottG said:

@Denny16 (and others), do you know how much glycol capacity the Alde Flow adds to the system? I've heard the 400 takes about 3 gallons (vs. ~2 for the 320) but I'm not sure if that includes the Flow or not. Weren't those added only to later 400s? I haven't followed 400 specs that closely...

During my rinse and fill on my 2019 400 I have the Flow and used a full 4 gallons when refilling so that is conservative. I did put enough extra in to make sure I had flushed all the distilled water, maybe a half gallon. So I would estimate 3 1/2 gal capacity with the Flow in the 400.

Denny16

It took about 3.5 gallons of glycol (Century TF-1) to replace the fluid in out 2018 TaB400 without the Flo, which adds about a quart more fluid capacity.  So with the Flo, I would get 4 gallons of glycol.
cheers

RCB

Many have indicated only a partial volume of glycol can be removed via the drain location under the trailer. Might it be possible to suck all glycol out from the drain using a pump ?

lkc001

@VictoriaP I COMPLETELY agree with your statement "When they “come clean”, they had best have a solid plan for resolving this. I’m at the two year mark next week. Looking at these posts as someone who has neither the skills, tools, or bandwidth to completely overhaul this system myself just to change the glycol, and at previous posts detailing the difficulty of getting replacement parts since the merger with Truma, I’m honestly wondering if I shouldn’t just trade in my Tab and get something with an industry standard furnace and h2o heater that can be easily and more cheaply serviced or replaced by virtually any RV mechanic in the country. Per the Alde site, the only service centers within 500 miles are at a dealership that doesn’t sell Tabs, and we all know how easy it is to get service from a dealer you didn’t buy from who has little familiarity with your trailer brand. And sorry Alde/Truma, but saying “bring it to Elkhart” as I saw they responded to one person here, is not a viable solution for a large chunk of the population.   

   *******************I also cannot build something to do this drain and exchange.  It will be more than enough for me to pull the plug, let it drain as much as it can and then add back in a gallon of the Century glycol.  I won't even be attempting to change to this "new" fluid or pump out all the old & replace.  I do not have anywhere close to take my 2017 320S to get it done.  As far as I know the previous owner did not change out the glycol. So mine is into 3rd full year +.  The two dealers outside of Denver are horrible dealers.  The dealer I purchased from is 3 hours away, are no longer a Nucamp dealer and they do not have the equipment needed.  In addition the $500-$800 that I have seen people say they have been quoted is ridiculous!  SHAME ON YOU ALDE AND NUCAMP for not coming up with something for the average person to do this!!!  I guess I'll use it until it breaks and then I'll have no heat or hot water!  This is way beyond my expertise.  I am not young anymore and it is hard enough to be able to get a long funnel into the tiny corner to add glycol.  I'm very disappointed and annoyed.  Taking my trailer from Denver to the manufacturer is not an option for me.  I would gladly pay someone a REASONABLE fee if they are in the Denver area, so if anyone hears of someone in Denver, please let me know!!!  NOT the dealers in Longmont.

Denny16

It is not nüCamp fault that users are not following the instructions that came with your TaB and Alde system.  It clearly states the glycol needs changing every two years.  We went into buying a taB knowing this.  Trying to hold nüCamp or a dealer responsible for not changing the fluid as prescribed is a non-starter.

While nüCamp depends on its dealers to support thenTaB after the sale, it could have a better dealer training program to ensure the dealer can provide the required support.
The Alde was not designed to be a DYI service piece of equipment, and to do a complete glycol change as required requires a pump and some special equipment. 

 

With the increased technology being built into today’s cars, and RVs, the days are over for working on your own vehicle, apart from downing some basic service, like oil changes.  But then, you need proof the oil was change was done to keep your new vehicle warranty in tact, same goes for tires and proper rotation.  

Changing only part of the glycol is not going to prevent corrosion, as the additives in the glycol that prevent corrosion loose their effectiveness after two years and diluting down with a partial change is not going to give the protection a complete fluid change will.  Do you only replace part of the oil in your car, of course not.  

I agree, there should be a set rate for doing service like the Alde glycol change, it is normally a 2-hr shop time and the cost of the glycol, which nüCamp provides to its dealers.  Having a $400 to $500 quote by a shop for what should be a $300-350 service is a bit much.
cheers

N7SHG_Ham

Shop time around here is $140/hr, so two hours is $280. Even if you use the less expensive Century @ $25/gal, that is another $100 on a Tab 400. I can easy see this being $400, add in a flush for changing to the Rhomar plus the Rhomar fluid which seems to be a bit more than Century and it goes up.

Any way you cut it, for a shop to do this is going to be an average cost of $200 a year minimum if you change every other year.

Denny16

Yes it will, I just consider it a cost of ownership, and I prefer the Alde over a forced air heating system.   When you own a boat, it costs even more each year in maintenance, including getting the engine and heat exchangers serviced.  I own a small diesel tractor, and it cost me about $100 to $200 a year in maintenance costs too, even when I do some of the required service myself.
cheers

SLAM

There was a thread here a while ago that included a posting from ALDE UK that listed some alternative glycols, one of them being G13 VW(volkswagon). Readily available and about the same cost as Century fluid. Perhaps it would have better  corrosion specs. A thorough flush would be needed though.

ChrisFix

N7SHG_Ham said:

Shop time around here is $140/hr, so two hours is $280. Even if you use the less expensive Century @ $25/gal, that is another $100 on a Tab 400. I can easy see this being $400, add in a flush for changing to the Rhomar plus the Rhomar fluid which seems to be a bit more than Century and it goes up.

Any way you cut it, for a shop to do this is going to be an average cost of $200 a year minimum if you change every other year.

I like that way of thinking of it. It is $200 to maybe $300 a year for the Alde system. Is it worth it? I think so. I realize not everyone will agree, but to me, this is the best heating and hot water system on the market. In fact, it is one of the main reasons I purchased a T@B. I knew going in that the glycol needed replacement every two years, and I'm okay with that. I didn't bargain for the system possibly being destroyed by the factory glycol however...so I'll need to wait and see how that all plays out over time. My wife and I have truly loved our T@B 400 - it is our first camper, and we have enjoyed every minute in it - and we've used it a ton in it's first year (over 15K miles with another 2K trip next week), and have experienced every kind of weather, wind, and camping location.  
No surprise, the nicer things like a T@B and the Alde system cost more than a lot of other options, but I feel like I got more by having them - so a fair deal overall. 
The switch to Rhomar and the Airstream recall do concern me, but having a newer unit, I know I have a fair bit of time before I realistically will experience any problems. And hopefully by then, the situation will be clearer than it is now. 
All that said, I plan on doing a complete drain and flush with Century when I get back from our upcoming trip. Seems like cheap-ish insurance to prevent or at least slowdown any issues with the Century glycol.

Has anyone changed out the glycol on a 2021 unit? The reservoir is in the drivers side front bookshelf area of the dinette...which I think is a new for 2021 location?

Denny16

SLAM said:

There was a thread here a while ago that included a posting from ALDE UK that listed some alternative glycols, one of them being G13 VW(volkswagon). Readily available and about the same cost as Century fluid. Perhaps it would have better  corrosion specs. A thorough flush would be needed though.

From what I understand, the UK and European glycol (G13) is not legal to use in USA due to its toxicity, not sure about Canada.  That is why Alde USA recommended Century TF-1, which is not toxic.  

Cheers

N7SHG_Ham

G13 I believe is an ethylene glycol and NOT a propylene glycol, ethylene is highly toxic and since a leak in the water jacket internal to the Alde system would let that into your tap hot water it isn't used in NA. I guess they don't care about consequences in rest of world?

Safety would dictate a propylene glycol, preferably one rated as GRAS or General Regarded As Safe. Honestly I am not even sure the Rhomar is GRAS, but it is propylene, the only non GRAS part might be the inhibitor?

Horigan

RCB said:

Many have indicated only a partial volume of glycol can be removed via the drain location under the trailer. Might it be possible to suck all glycol out from the drain using a pump ?

With a T@b 400 without the three way frig (thus with a full closet) it's easy to access the reservoir and suck the remaining fluid from one of the hoses to the reservoir with a shop vac.  You'll get all of the two remaining gallons out.  I provided details further up in this thread.

lkc001

I believe that ucamp IS responsible for ensuring that the dealers they choose to sell & represent their products have the equipment & training to do this service.  The dealers around denver said they do not do this service-- this is a nucamp issue & they are certainly staying far away from addressing it.

Denny16

And to me, it is also a dealer issue, for not taking the initiative to setup the ability to service properly what they are selling.  It takes two to tango, as the saying goes.  Servicing the Alde is part of servicing the TaB, and the relative small dealer we have in NorCal, has a service tech that goes back to nüCamp every few years or when new systems are introduced to keep current on his training, this includes servicing the Alde. 

If the rural dealer we have can offer complete service for TaBs, a larger metropolis Denver dealer should be doing the same...
cheers