Changing out the Alde fluid.

pak

Drained mt 320CS-S today. I built a pump system very much like Scott's. Same pump, stoppers etc. I am impressed with the $14.00 pump. I was able to get close to a gallon on the gravity drain alone. My reservoir tank is behind the toilet(pretty much my main gripe with this process). I probably got close to another gallon out at the reservoir. I suspected there may be some additional glycol in the system someplace, so I disconnected the curved hose connecting the upper and lower heat exchanger. With a shop vac I sucked out what I could from both exchangers. I guess I got most of it. I need to get more glycol to refill the system. The old glycol is the original from 2017. It is gin clear and ph tests above 8.5. The is absolutely zero sign of corrosion on the exchanger ends. My goal is to try and streamline this process. Thank all of you for your ideas, suggestions and troubleshooting expertise.

BrianZ

@ScottG,
In your 11 April message on page 12, under the "Draining" heading, item 2, you mentioned "(Use Spill Precautions)".
Can you explain further why you said that & what those precautions might be?  What kind of spill did you have?  And did you have any additional spill after removing the bleeder valve section with the check valve? 
Seems to me that the check valve would prevent leakage when removing the connection at the Alde, but that removing the check valve section of the tube from the hose might cause a spill if the hose opening was lower than the rest of the convector loop before it was drained.  Was that your concern?
Thanks.

BrianZ

5-20-21 Edit/Disclaimer:
Due to temperature issues with the barbed PVC fitting, I am replacing them with stainless steel.  This will now be possible using two layers of heat shrink tubing over the 3/4" barbs to fit the 7/8" Alde hose.

I've received some of the parts I hope to use for installing a glycol flush T-valve into the Alde system, so thought I'd share what I have so far..

1.  3/4" NPT to 3/4"Barbed Fitting: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008FML2NY
New Stainless Steel Fitting (2):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N9YWSF2
OR:
Brass Fitting:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N9YWSF2
plus Heat Shrink Tubing:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FPKVMTW
(Or two layers of a thinner shrink material)

2.  3-way Valve:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G6W7BBG

3.  3/4" NPT to Garden Hose Adapter:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08151L2ZT

4.  90° Garden Hose Shut-off Valve, 3/4":
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08QTVMFK1

5.  3/4" Barbed Garden Hose Adapter:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y2GZ9S6

6.  3/4" Hose
And assembled..

After assembling, I checked for fit inside the Alde compartment in our T@B 320, and was encouraged how it seemed to fit without any conflicts in this already crowded area.  I placed a small block of wood to be mounted behind the valve to give some clearance for the 120V electric cables that enter nearby.  It appears that a single U-bolt could hold the valve mounted to that 5/8" plywood wall..

(Of course, I won't be cutting any hose until after all lines are drained!     )
There is room for the handle to operate in all 3 positions, as well as for attaching the 90° valve & hose for adding fluid.  It also appears that there should be sufficient hose length to reattach to the valve after cutting it in half, but that remains to be proven.  (UPDATE:  Since I had received a piece of hose from a generous donor that just happened to be the right length to fit between the Alde pump & the new valve, I used that piece there; then cut the original hose coming from the drain to fit & connect to the other side.)

Below is another view of the valve.  The arrows show the 3/4" neck of the valve where I hope to mount it with a U-bolt.  The only issue there is that there is only about 1/8" of clearance, so I may have to create my own U-bolt if I can't find one with a diameter that narrow.  I think even a couple of thin bolts could work.

In case you're wondering about the funny looking barbed hose fitting, it's made of PVC, and has a diameter that's a couple mm larger than the 3/4" brass hose fitting shown.  I'm hoping it will be a better fit for those 22mm ID Alde hoses.

My only concern about using this PVC fitting is the temperature.  Specs say it's good up to 140°F, while the Alde specs say max system temp is 185°F; however, it would be located at the coolest spot in the entire Alde system, so I'm thinking it should not be a problem (Update: It is a problem! Not using it!).  I like this idea better than wrapping with duct tape, since this will be heated, which could loosen tape adhesive.  The alternative would be using stainless or brass fittings with potentially looser fit (heat shrink tubing fixes the loose fit!).  Thanks to @fstop32, I should have some Alde hose soon to test for fit.
Now, how many gallons of glycol will I need for the old 3010 system - is 2G enough?

ScottG

BrianZ said:

@ScottG,
In your 11 April message on page 12, under the "Draining" heading, item 2, you mentioned "(Use Spill Precautions)".
Can you explain further why you said that & what those precautions might be?  What kind of spill did you have?  And did you have any additional spill after removing the bleeder valve section with the check valve? 
Seems to me that the check valve would prevent leakage when removing the connection at the Alde, but that removing the check valve section of the tube from the hose might cause a spill if the hose opening was lower than the rest of the convector loop before it was drained.  Was that your concern?
Thanks.

@BrianZ, I did not have any significant spill. However, things do dribble a bit when taken apart, hence my unintentionally ominous recommendation to use "spill precautions" which include not only a dish to catch the dribbles, but also keeping the disconnected heater hose high enough to contain the glycol trapped in the convector loop. Here's a photo of the hose disconnected from the air bleeder assembly with my drip pan in the back. 



Looking forward to your report on the filling tee. The 320 takes about two gallons of fluid, but I would have at least three to allow for a little extra flushing and to ensure you have enough on hand to top of the reservoir as needed.

BrianZ

Thank you, @ScottG, for that info.  I ordered a 3rd gallon of glycol.  @fstop32 recommended it too.
I became more concerned after seeing @ChanW's elevations drawing from 12 Apr, which leads me to believe that removing the check valve assembly from that top hose would cause glycol to drain from the higher elevations in the convector loop, unless you hold the end high enough to prevent that.  I imagine it might take holding it low for a while to get that flow started, but once gravity & the siphon effect takes over, you could potentially have a big mess.

I wonder if there is any reason not to pump air through the check/bleeder valves assembly part of the hose, since you're not going against the check valve.  However, I know there have been cases where the automatic air bleeder valve gets stuck closed & needs replacement, so maybe not good for that reason to force air through it.

By the way, thanks for the pump suggestion, which I've ordered.  I like the idea of slower & more controlled when doing this for the first time (or any time for that matter).  I'm thinking of using it initially to blow out that convector loop, by temporarily attaching my new valve (at lower right barbed connector in my 2nd photo above) with handle positioned at left and your pump connected to hose at upper right to pump out the glycol via expansion tank to the open drain.  If that doesn't work, then gentle application of compressed air using a nozzle with a trigger control.

I would think the glycol tank needs to be monitored frequently, but is in such an awkward position inside that back corner wall, even for a one-time check of fluid level.  At least there is an overflow tube.  I'm thinking it would be convenient to set up a camera with a remote display to a cell phone for monitoring.  I suppose I could use my cell phone camera on a clamp-on mini tripod & just cable it to display on the tab tv screen.

ScottG

@BrianZ, although I didn't try it (lungs and lips were more convenient) I do think that pump would work to blow out the convector loop as well--it is intended as both an air and fluid pump, and even comes with fittings to that effect.

Nor did I try lowering the disconnected hose to see if I could drain/syphon out the convector loop, as I didn't want to deal with a torrent of glycol in that small space.

The only reason I had that hose disconnected in the first place was because the boiler wasn't draining on it's own--possibly because of the check valve. (Reports from others suggest patience and maybe a little jostling will get the flow started with out hose removal.) It was only after I had the hose disconnected that I tried the "blowout" method based on something someone else had reported here. It turned out fortuitous as once I had all the glycol out I could disassemble the entire system and inspect for corrosion at all the convectors.

FWIW, the blowing did create a bit of bubbling and splashing in the expansion tank, but there was no concern of it overflowing--the fluid drained out the other hole almost as fast as it entered. 

BrianZ

Thanks for that info, @ScottG.  Getting all the glycol out will be my initial goal too.  That will allow me to cut the hose in half between the pump & drain for installing my valve. 
This discussion reminds me now that I'd better set up a pressure test on my valve with all its fittings in place before installing it!  My limited experience with plumbing jobs has taught me that connections often require some tweaking or extra sealant/tape to stop minor leaks.  At least this glycol system isn't under any significant pressure other than from gravity or the flow pump.

ScottG

I agree, @BrianZ. Concern over leaks from slightly mismatched fittings was one of the reasons I hitched my wagon the the expansion tank adapters (which accomplish the same task without any system modification).

Tinkerers must tinker, however, and I'm glad to see someone forging ahead with this idea as an alternative approach!  ;-)  

pak

Im trying to get in contact with Century. In the mean time, does anyone know the difference between Century TF-1 and Century 19910-C6. They are the same color and by all appearances very similar if not the same. There is a considerable price , on Amazon, however.

ChrisFix

pak said:

Im trying to get in contact with Century. In the mean time, does anyone know the difference between Century TF-1 and Century 19910-C6. They are the same color and by all appearances very similar if not the same. There is a considerable price , on Amazon, however.

The bottle of TF-1 I just purchased from Amazon (and product was sold by Amazon) has a sticker on the top that says TF-1, but the printed label says 19910-C6 on the bottom.
My conclusion, is that they are exactly the same product.
I see only a $0.95 price difference on Amazon between the two. I bought the more expensive ($24.95) TF-1 to make sure I was getting the correct product, but like I said, it is actually 19910-C6.

pak

I just got off the phone with Century. The gentleman confirmed that these are the same product. 19910-C6 is the company number.

ChrisFix

pak said:

I just got off the phone with Century. The gentleman confirmed that these are the same product. 19910-C6 is the company number.

Yes. It is their Green Transfer Fluid, vs their Red Transfer Fluid. Other than concentrated or pre-mixed, that seems to be the only product differentiation needed for Century Transfer Fluid.

Dalehelman

When I replaced the coolant in our Jeep. After the initial drain. I found that my shop vac worked best to evacuate the rest of the coolant in the block, heater and radiator. It’s high volume low pressure and also creates a drying effect. Also less chance for damage that compressed air might cause. I just hooked up and left or run for about a half hour or more. I could feel the intake drawing, and the moisture in the exhaust at the beginning. I hope to use the same technique on the Alde.

Denny16

Scott, et all, the Alde is not going to syphon drain very much, it will at first, but once the fluid level drops in the tubes and air gets in, the syphon is broken.
cheers

BrianZ

5-20-21 Edit/Disclaimer:
Due to temperature issues with the barbed PVC fitting, I am replacing them with stainless steel.  This will now be possible using one or  two layers of heat shrink tubing over the 3/4" barbs to fit the 7/8" Alde hose.

I got my 22mm Alde tubing sample today (thanks to @fstop32), and I am really pleased with the fit on the 3/4" PVC barbed fitting - It is snug & takes a bit of pulling & wiggling to remove it..


On the other hand, the 3/4" brass fitting is a poor match and just falls right off.  There is a gap of about 3/32", though not unexpected, and it does appear to measure 3/4"..
(This is the exact same piece of hose on both.)


The PVC one is just a bit oversized, so I'm really pleased with the way it fits, as I had hoped.

TNOutback

I’ve read the first 5 pages, got disinterested, then read the last 4 pages.  Sort of like how I read book assignments in high school . . . . I am coming up on two years on my Alde fluid, and I’ve got no idea what I should do.

qhumberd

TNOutback said:

I’ve read the first 5 pages, got disinterested, then read the last 4 pages.  Sort of like how I read book assignments in high school . . . . I am coming up on two years on my Alde fluid, and I’ve got no idea what I should do.

Just read the @ScottG posts as he has a good procedure worked out. Or @Horigan or my post as we share the same year and model I think? If your reservoir is in the closet you have lots of options. 

ScottG

Thanks, @qhumberd. FWIW, I'm just about finished writing up formal instructions for the process I summarized above on April 11. It's quite a bit longer than the one page I naively promised so long ago, but I've opted for detail over brevity in the hopes that it will be accessible to the greatest number of owners who just want to get this done. I expect to post it sometime later this week. 

qhumberd

ScottG said:

Thanks, @qhumberd. FWIW, I'm just about finished writing up formal instructions for the process I summarized above on April 11. It's quite a bit longer than the one page I naively promised so long ago, but I've opted for detail over brevity in the hopes that it will be accessible to the greatest number of owners who just want to get this done. I expect to post it sometime later this week. 

So since we have discovered that so many models and model variations cause installation changes in the Alde,  perhaps a list of procedures done by owners by year and model would be helpful, and folks could see what might be most accessible to them? In my case after my flush and refill (which did work) in my 400, I was concerned that repeatedly pulling hoses and taking off reservoirs would not be a good solution even every couple of years, so the stopper method from @ScottG and @gregndeb has won me over, with the difference that I still like my little submersible pump and the convenience of the cig lighter power in my 400. So waiting on some details and dimensions! Thanks

ScottG

Good point, @qhumbard. Another consideration I kept in mind was a method that could be used for different models and configurations. Since all Alde systems feature the same basic glycol circuit, I think this protocol will work for all. The biggest differences will be system capacity as the length of hose and number of convectors may vary. 

BrianZ

@ScottG, I'm not sure your protocol will work for all, and I mean both all Tabs plus all people.  That back right corner location of our glycol tank in the wall is just so inaccessible/uncomfortable to get to, that it seems like it would be a real pain to do.  But it would sure beat renting Nucamp's Alde pump contraption & a heck of a lot cheaper.

BrianZ

5-20-21 Edit/Disclaimer:
Due to temperature issues with the barbed PVC fitting, I am replacing them with stainless steel.  This will now be possible using two layers of heat shrink tubing over the 3/4" barbs to fit the 7/8" Alde hose.

I pressure tested my Alde T-valve rig today using water pressurized to 20 PSI..
I filled this assembly with water between the valves at top & at right.  The 3-way valve as shown connects the top pipe (with air hose) to the lower right (which would be the hose from the expansion tank when installed).

The green arrow shows my homemade U-bolt I plan to use for mounting (a 1/8 x 5" bolt from a long toggle bolt, which I cut the head off & bent).  After testing this way, I moved the rubber hose to the opposite side, switched the valve to that side, and re-tested.

Like most plumbing jobs, this exercise took longer than expected, but was well worth the effort, since I did in fact find a couple of small leaks at the valve connections that were not solved by teflon tape on the threads alone.  I had to stack two washers inside the valve, and the shorter adapter fitting (a 3/4 NPT x 3/4" garden hose) at the top needed 3 washers.  The PVC fittings performed better (Edit: but not at high temps, as it turned out).

The arrows here show where I first noticed the tiny beads of water after a minute or so.
And there was no leakage anywhere else, including at the Alde hose on the PVC connectors, which had been my biggest concern.  So, I am satisfied now with this "proof of concept", so will move ahead with my plan before long.  Next will be to mount the valve in the Alde compartment, then drain all lines (thank you @ScottG for posting all your work on draining & flushing).  I now have glycol, but need some distilled water for flushing.  Then I can reconnect hoses to the 3-way valve and use it to refill.

One more photo today, with the 3-way valve firmly installed in the cabinet (not hooked up yet, in this view looking from the rear of the Alde compartment towards the front).  Much easier to control the stiff valve handle when it's firmly anchored to the cabinet.  See red arrows..

PS:  In the last photo, the valve position flushes/fills the Alde & convectors loop, but if turned 180° after closing the drain, then as a final step, the line going up to the expansion tank could be filled from the bottom up, pushing air into the tank, before returning the valve to the normal position.  Then, after running the Alde pump to expel air, the same procedure could be repeated to backfill the drain tube section from bottom up to restore the proper tank level without having to pour glycol into the tank.
If there are any medical people reading this, the valve would be similar to connecting an IV or injecting meds into the port in a patient's intravenous line.  

fstop32

Nice work @BrianZ!  I like the way you have methodically thought this through, built your "proof of concept" model, etc.,...sounds like the kind of stuff I do!    May the force be with you!

ScottG

As promised long ago here it is...

While I had naively hoped to keep this to a page or two, I opted for details (including graphics) over brevity. I've also included two appendices offering additional tips for complete draining and flushing.

This is an inexpensive, effective method that requires minimal skill and few tools. Access is solely through the expansion tank cap--and no disassembling or modification of the system is needed--so this should work across the broad range of models, years, and configurations.

Inventors and innovators may devise more elaborate or elegant solutions. For some, no DIY approach will be within reach. I hope for everyone else in between who just wants to get the job done, this will give you the confidence to take it on.

Bear in mind I've tried this exactly once, on my own 2015 "320" S. Several others have successfully used similar approaches, but testing is far from exhaustive. If you give this a go, please report back on how it went. If needed, I'll make periodic updates to clarify or correct specifics. 

Denny16

Nice job Scott, lots of good info in an easy to understand format.
cheers

pak

Thank you very much, Scott. A copy of this will go with the winterization/ dewinterization proceedure.

Sharon_is_SAM

@ScottG - is it premature to add this to our Manuals category area?

ScottG

Sharon_is_SAM said:

@ScottG - is it premature to add this to our Manuals category area?

I don't think so. I just fixed a minor typo so I'll go ahead and do it.

db_cooper

Nicely done @ScottG

One thing I meant to point out earlier,  when you use the analog Alde control to run the circulation pump,  if it's too warm in your trailer, turning the temp knob to 5 may still not get the pump to run.  I thought I'd broken something else, until I figured out it was probably too warm , so I had to wait for it to cool down in the evening before I could continue filling my system.

qhumberd

Thanks @ScottG for this. I feel that your adaptors are the best option for my 400, though the shop vac and regular elbows also work, albeit with having to disconnect the hoses from the reservoir, and not all have this luxury. I like the flush as you describe since the time to clear air is minimal.

I can see dealers using this method as well as it works just as well as the factory pump with less bulk.

Great job!