Changing out the Alde fluid.

Tabaz

Same here Scott - great job in devising an elegant, simple, inexpensive and effective way to change the fluid.  Have all the parts you prescribed and will be doing my exchange this weekend.

ChrisFix

@ScottG
+1 on the Thank You shout-outs!
I'm going to give this a try (with Century TF1) on a 2021 T@B 400 that is at it's 1st birthday out of an abundance of caution and hoping to head off any issues until such time there is some greater clarity around the Century vs Rhomar decision. 

ScottG

@db_cooper, I had the same experience with the analog panel. It was an atypically warm early April day and by the time I got around to burping the system the T@B had warmed up to the point that I couldn't get the circulator running with the thermostat. Fortunately, opening the window more and directing cool air on to the thermostat wth my small fan did the trick.

I did mention this wrinkle in the in the document. I guess users of the analog panel should plan their glycol service during cool weather!  :-)

ScottG

@qhumberd, I do think the shop vac method is pretty clever and effective, but was afraid it might be a non-starter for those without or shop vac, or those who couldn't access the bottom of the reservoir (particularly those whose reservoir is located in the nether regions behind the bathroom wall).

I wonder if this access issue in some campers is what drove Alde to change to a service pump with a bottom fill design. I'm not sure exactly how that new pump works, but I imagine it is much like the process @BrianZ is prototyping with the fill port.

When I have more time to sift back through all this material, I may add documentation of some of these more ambitious approaches to the "User's Manuals..." library where those who are interested can access them quickly.

lkc001

I have a few questions after talking to a mobile RV repair person recommended by NuCamp. 
1.  If you are changing out the Century yellow-green fluid and plan on using the same fluid to refill, not replace with the "new" fluid, how long should the complete drain and fill take? (this would include the "flushing" referred to below)
2. Would you also be using "denatured water" to "flush" the system before adding in the fresh fluid?  
3. If any of you have received a quote for this service through a dealer, how much was your quote for this service, which would include the fluid?
Thank you

ScottG

@lkc001, if you are using a method similar to what I described, it would take only as long as it takes to drain the expansion tank and then pump up to 3 gallons through whatever pump you are using. With my simple hand pump, I could probably complete the job in 20-30 minutes at a dawdling pace.

This assumes you do not try to completely drain the system, or flush it with water or something else. If your glycol still looks good, you don't need to take anything apart for inspection or repair, and you are not changing brands of glycol, there's no real compelling reason I can see to do these things, as the new fluid will effectively flush out and replace the vast majority of the old.

If you do elect to flush the system, I think you are looking for distilled water, not denatured water. The process is essentially the same, though the extra steps will add time, complexity, and fluid.

I've never gotten a quote through a dealer so can't help there.

Denny16

Mine was estimated at one to two hours, I was billed for one hour labor plus four gallons of Century TF-1 when we had our Alde system flushed and refilled.
cheers

lkc001

@ScottG Thank you for the info.  I had sent Nucamp an e-mail about the dealers anywhere near me saying they will not take any trailers in for service that were not purchased from them.  So that's not an option.  Nucamp responded back that they had two other dealers in Colorado, both a minimum 4-5 hour drive one way.   Again-not an option for me.  They also referred me to a mobile RV tech that has done some work for them on Tabs and knows the Alde.  I contacted him and --hold on to your seat--he charges $800 + $88 trip charge to completely pump out the old fluid, then he said it had to be flushed with "denatured water" to completely get out all the old then refill.  Says they charge a flat rate of 6 hours for labor--the rest is for supplies and pump I guess??  $800 is insane.  For his other services he still charges a trip charge, but was reasonable on the price for the other two small things that I wanted done.  I e-mailed Nucamp back again and voiced my frustration and displeasure about being able to get service on my Tab in the Denver area and at a reasonable price.  They emailed me back again and said they reached out to Windish and that Windish agreed to service my Alde.  I will be calling Windish tomorrow to see what their costs are and if they will actually do it, and how long I would have to leave my trailer with them, etc, because I was told they would not yesterday.  

lkc001

@ScottG oh, and Nucamp said they charge $400 for their service and it takes 4 hours.

Denny16

No comment
cheers

Sharon_is_SAM

@Denny16 - except that nuCamp is only instilling Rhomar in their new units.

Denny16

Sorry, No comment.
cheers

Verna

@Denny16, you are speculating about the competence of nüCamp’s factory trained repair group. This is your opinion, not based on fact. It’s not really a good thing to speculate in an almost negative way about nüCamp’s employees competence. 

 

Denny16 said:

I know, but perhaps they are only stocking the Rhomar fluid, which would explain the four hour labor quote.  It does not take four hours to drain, one flush, and refill with Century TF-1 in a TaB400.  I do not see where a 320 would take much longer. Our local dealer with a factory trained tech did this in about 1.5 hrs, his estimate was two hours max.
cheers

Denny16

Sorry, I was not trying to discredit anyone, only offering a possible explanation for what appears to be a high estimate based on my experience having the same procedure done on our TaB. 

BrianZ

Has anyone been able to order Alde parts anywhere?

I really don't want to install a fill valve on my Alde hose without a spare hose on hand, in case I should run into a problem and need to revert back.  And now that I think about it, I would probably be better off with a couple of hose clamping pliers, two hose clamps, and one of those silver connecting tubes to replace a leaky valve, if ever needed.  I might be overthinking this, but it would alleviate any worry about what to do in case of a leak, even without this mod I'm working on.  Any thoughts or suggestions?

ScottG

@lkc001, I cannot comment authoritatively on why professional servicing (including that done by nuCamp) costs so much. As noted in previous comments, a complete flush and refill (especially if it involves changing to a different brand of glycol) will add time, complexity, and cost vs. a simple refresh of the existing fluid, but upwards of $900 seems steep, even if the service comes to you.

As another possible alternative if you just can not tackle this yourself, do you have a trusted mechanic or mechanically inclined friend to whom you could show my write-up who might be willing to assemble the parts and do this for you at their going rate? @MadCityJack found a tech that was able to accomplish this by studying this exhaustive discussion--seems with an actual document in hand it would be even easier.

ScottG

@BrianZ, while there have been some preliminary communications, to date I am unaware of anyone being able to follow through with successfully securing Alde parts from Truma/Alde, nuCamp, or a dealer. There seems to be suppliers in the U.K. who will ship to the U.S., but I don't know of anyone who has taken that route, either.

If someone can comment here and refute me on this matter, I will be delighted!  ;-)

Frankly, this was one of the reasons I was hesitant to make permanent  mods on my system, or even risk tugging at the hoses at the expansion tank. 

BrianZ

Thank you, @ScottG.  Disappointing to hear there's no source for Alde parts, even at dealers.  Seems crazy.

I wonder if this would be a workable substitute..
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082KFLCGW
And I found these clamps, which could be a life saver when it comes to leaks & repairs..
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GK5J6PS

pak

Given the placement of the reservoir tank in my CS-S, I would imagine the cost to change the fluid would rattle most people. With the small access door I really do not know how a technician could get access to the hoses to attach the pump. I would like to get some of the correct size tubing so I could install another access point. I will on my next change.

BrianZ

@qhumberd, I wanted to say thanks for your write-up & photos on your fluid exchange.  I was particularly interested in your electric submersion pump, as I expect it would not be introducing any air.  I didn't see any photos of the pump itself in action, so was wondering about its output head pressure.  What was the height of the top of the new glycol being pumped in compared to that of the highest point at the expansion tank?  I assume it was pumping uphill by some amount (though if exiting from a closed system at the other end, it probably got a bit of an assist from gravity/siphon effect once it got started).  The pumping time you gave seemed fine.  I will test this next.

I will likely replace Scott's manual pump with this electric type, to avoid introducing so much extra air, which seems unnecessary, but unavoidable with that manual pump.  The manual pump actually works like a siphon (and is even labeled as such), because if the source container is higher than the destination, it flows right through the pump without pumping, and no way to stop it.  It actually flows better that way without passing air, just uncontrolllable.  Pumping from a lower position or the same level allows more control, but with extra air added. 

For pumping from a level or slightly lower position, I'm thinking another option might be to use a container sealed with a sturdy cap, like the one Century glycol provides.  Then make an air-tight hole for a [smaller] plastic tube (using rubber grommet to seal), with a second small hole for applying limited air pressure to inject glycol  into the system, like a manual pump but using controlled air pressure from a regulated compressor with a trigger nozzle on the end of the air hose.  Just a thought.  I already use this method to flush our outside shower valve & lines when winterizing.

lkc001

@ScottG and all who contributed to the simple pump instructions and how to source the supplies.  Excellent!!  How nice of all of you to put in this time and effort and have given your information freely.    I have printed off the instructions.  I almost understand the set-up and I'm pretty sure I could make the simple pump myself.  I'm going to have to go study my Alde expansion tank to clearly see where I would have to  place the adapters.  I have a 2017 Tab 320S with the expansion tank hidden behind a panel that slides out in a very small corner on the drivers side rear next to the lid that lifts up on the storage unit that runs the length of the back of the trailer.  There is barely enough room to get a funnel in there to put more glycol in.  

Thank you for your suggestions.  I may have someone that might take this on.  My brother knows how to do everything, and can make something if it isn't manufactured, just like you, but unfortunately does not live close to me.
 

ScottG

That's great, @lkc001. If you (or your brother) give this a try, please report back. One of the things I'm a little uncertain of in the 2017+ T@Bs is the amount of room over the expansion tank. Its sounds like it is pretty confined compared to other models and years.

As mentioned in the instructions, you might have to make your adapters a bit shorter. Fortunately the mouth of the expansion tank is pretty wide so I remain confident that so long as the adapters aren't too tall for the space, you should still be able to get them in and out of the tank without excess difficulty. Good luck! 

lkc001

@ScottG My brother doesn't live near me, so that won't help unfortunately.  I just went out and looked at the expansion tank.  I don't know if it is possible to even attempt this, given the extreme small space the tank is in and the contortions needed to do this--yikes--it is sure crammed in there. 

When your instructions talk about putting the adapters in the bottom of the tank, do you mean there are two holes on the INSIDE of the tank at the bottom and you just shove the rubber ends into the holes?  There is no way to reach the UNDERSIDE of my expansion tank without taking a bunch of stuff apart, which brings up another concern. . .   

Freespirit

@ScottG, thank you for taking the time and effort to document the drain and re- fill process for the Alde. Like others I have copied the guide and will be referring to it in July/August when I drain and refill my system with the century glycol. I inspected all hoses for bubbles and they look good from the outside. I hope the system is clean as the T@B sat on the dealer lot a year before we purchased it. The system will have been used less than 25 times in 24 months. I will report back with my findings. 

Your comments about making sure the pump you use(manual or electric) is free if any grease or lubricant caught my attention, without your insight I would not have thought twice about the possibility of introducing an undesirable agent into the system, and used the pump as is out of the box.  Would a food grade DC 12 volt food grade pump be a good choice.

uxcell DC 12V 300mA 1300ml Water Flow Food Grade Self Priming Diaphragm Micro Water Pump

Thanks again for your time and effort.
cheers

ScottG

@lkc001, you are correct. The adapters go into the top of the tank,  and stick into the holes at the bottom of the inside of the tank. No need to access anything other than the big hole at the top!

ScottG

@Freespirit, I can't comment on other pumps that I haven't tested, but there are certainly lots of options that should work so long as they have enough force to push 2-3 gallons of fluid through the system (and I would guess that most do). I say give it a try and tell us how it works!  :-)

db_cooper

As for getting parts, I'm expecting my new expansion tank any day. Ordered through Missouri Teardrops, they have been fantastic.  I don't know if NuCamp sells other parts of the Alde, but I think they might sell the same things they use on our trailers.  

qhumberd

BrianZ said:

@qhumberd, I wanted to say thanksfor your write-up & photos on your fluid exchange.  I was particularly interested in your electric submersion pump, as I expect it would not be introducing any air.  I didn't see any photos of the pump itself in action, so was wondering about its output head pressure.  What was the height of the top of the new glycol being pumped in compared to that of the highest point at the expansion tank?  I assume it was pumping uphill by some amount (though if exiting from a closed system at the other end, it probably got a bit of an assist from gravity/siphon effect once it got started).  The pumping time you gave seemed fine.  I will test this next.

I will likely replace Scott's manual pump with this electric type, to avoid introducing so much extra air, which seems unnecessary, but unavoidable with that manual pump.  The manual pump actually works like a siphon (and is even labeled as such), because if the source container is higher than the destination, it flows right through the pump without pumping, and no way to stop it.  It actually flows better that way without passing air, just uncontrolllable.  Pumping from a lower position or the same level allows more control, but with extra air added. 

For pumping from a level or slightly lower position, I'm thinking another option might be to use a container sealed with a sturdy cap, like the one Century glycol provides.  Then make an air-tight hole for a [smaller] plastic tube (using rubber grommet to seal), with a second small hole for applying limited air pressure to inject glycol  into the system, like a manual pump but using controlled air pressure from a regulated compressor with a trigger nozzle on the end of the air hose.  Just a thought.  I already use this method to flush our outside shower valve & lines when winterizing.

Thanks and the little electric pump I chose was to reduce air introduction and allow quick off and on. I did attach a cig liter adapter for a few dollars more cost to plug it up inside and that worked ok. The specs say it will lift several feet and when I first hooked it up to flush it was very steady. When I swapped buckets some air did get in the line and a couple of times it struggled to get going but raising and lowering the tubing worked each time. I did rinse water thru before using it but could not detect any grease or oil in it. I think it will make a backup outside wash pump. There are lots of these available so my is just this one. Next time I will use the @ScottG adapter with a pump so no wrestling with hoses! Good luck

BrianZ

I did this little experiment today using compressed air, a plastic gallon jug, and a 3/4" vinyl tube, as a potential pump for injecting glycol.

I drilled two holes in the cap and installed the tube with a rubber grommet to seal it, set the air pressure to about 15 PSI, put the jug on the floor and the other end in a bucket set 3ft higher above the jug.  Then I placed the air nozzle into the small hole in the cap & pulled the trigger to pump the water.  It took 27 seconds to pump a gallon of water up 3 ft of elevation into the bucket.  If a shut off valve was added to the tube, and the air hose was fixed to a fitting on the jug to maintain constant pressure, then you'd have an on-demand glycol injector pump.  An electric pump with on/off switch may be more convenient, but this could work too if you already have an air compressor.

PS:  Incidentally, this particular sturdy gallon jug originally contained a different kind of glycol solution - one made of primarily polyethylene glycol, which is what you have to drink (yes, the whole thing) the day before having a colonoscopy.    I think I'd rather flush the Alde's pipes than my own.

ChanW

@BrianZ, I had done so well at forgetting that drink!!! Agh!