Official statement from Scott Hubble concerning the Air8 air conditioner

Dutch061

So, the biggest thing that wasn't addressed. Are you satisfied with this performance of the upgraded unit????

Brad

RFraer

If I knew this camper had this air conditioner I would not have bought it.  In my opinion the AIR8+ does not perform to the standard I would expect from a camper in its price range..  So no, I am not satisfied. Others have had the AIR8+ installed we will see if they are satisfied.

rh5555

Rather than repeat a physics lesson that I posted earlier this year, I'm just including a link

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/131793#Comment_131793

Take home message is that the bigger the temperature difference between inside and out, the less efficient any air conditioner becomes. At some point the inflow of heat balances the reduced cooling capability of the air conditioner.  It looks like that point is somewhere around 15 to 20F, based on the @AirBoss data.  The easiest way to improve on this is to only feed the hottest cabin air into the A/C inlet, this will increase the effective BTUs of the AIR8.  Mixing up the cabin air helps this problem, but the best solution would be to duct air from the ceiling, thereby ensuring one is cooling the hottest air.  I have some ideas on how to do this... Stay tuned.

AirBoss

I had the Air 8+ installed two weeks or so ago but have not have much of an opportunity to test it, save for a couple partial days in extreme heat (well over 100). Didn't seem quite fair to make a final judgment based on those dynamics alone.

I will be bringing the rig home tomorrow and parking it in the driveway (hopefully the HOA folks don't object) to do work on a couple things and run more A/C tests over the weekend. Temps expected in high 80's, low 90's, overnights mid-60's, mostly fun sun. Should be a fair assessment.

I can say I was contacted by nuCamp seeking my feedback. I expressed my concerns about the Air 8+ in a rather lengthy email, based on my limited data as well as what I've come to understand from others, without naming names or proposing to speak for them. I told nuCamp I'd get back to them early next week with my results. I do not anticipate results that differ in much regard from those stated by others. And that is considering that I have the updated vents, exhaust deflector, Reflectix Solar Insulation on all three windows and a mid-size Vornado fan runing towards the ceiling. All things that under normal circumstances would likely not be recommend or required. At least to nuCamp's credit they indicated "We are going to find a resolution for this situation." And yes...I know...that narrative has been around for quite some time. I've not  heard from Elwell since the install but in their defense, they are aware that I've not been able to run any additional tests.

I think some of the importance revolving around how the A/C performs may be geographically and use dependent. If you own a 2020 T@B 400 in the NW and don't plan on travelling much beyond those NW states, likely not a huge deal. For those in the SE and elsewhere where temp and humidity soar for several months out of the year, it is a very big deal. Regardless, seems fair to say that this matter impacts not only ones enjoyment of the investment, but potentially the resale/trade value. 

Remains to be seen how and when it will be resolved to the affected customers reasonable satisfaction. Which is why I feel it is vitally important to continue to provide feedback and seek updates from nuCamp and/or Elwell on a regular basis. 

Bottom line: Air 8 had approx. 58% of the cooling capacity of the Cool Cat...Air 8 Plus @ maybe 75%. It's hard to see how from a performance standpoint, that math pencils out in a positive manner. 

I'll share what I know after this weekend but I'm not holding my breath that my experience will somehow be exponentially more positive than what has been posted by others. 

AirBoss

rh5555 said:

Rather than repeat a physics lesson that I posted earlier this year, I'm just including a link

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/131793#Comment_131793

Take home message is that the bigger the temperature difference between inside and out, the less efficient any air conditioner becomes. At some point the inflow of heat balances the reduced cooling capability of the air conditioner.  It looks like that point is somewhere around 15 to 20F, based on the @AirBoss data.  The easiest way to improve on this is to only feed the hottest cabin air into the A/C inlet, this will increase the effective BTUs of the AIR8.  Mixing up the cabin air helps this problem, but the best solution would be to duct air from the ceiling, thereby ensuring one is cooling the hottest air.  I have some ideas on how to do this... Stay tuned.

I'm not at all familiar with the layout and ducting of the Cool Cat. Assuming it is similar to my understanding of the Air 8 configuration (air return under the bed, ducting at or near the floor), are we saying that the 10.5K BTU rating of the Cool Cat is capable of overcoming the less than favorable layout of the return and ducts? 

I'm not an SME on this stuff but now that I think about it, it does seem less than ideal that both the return and the output are located in what is, by defintion, the coolest area in the rig.  

Appreciate all the input from everyone on this thread...learn something every time I open it up. 

Dutch061

rh5555 said:

Rather than repeat a physics lesson that I posted earlier this year, I'm just including a link

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/131793#Comment_131793

Take home message is that the bigger the temperature difference between inside and out, the less efficient any air conditioner becomes. At some point the inflow of heat balances the reduced cooling capability of the air conditioner.  It looks like that point is somewhere around 15 to 20F, based on the @AirBoss data.  The easiest way to improve on this is to only feed the hottest cabin air into the A/C inlet, this will increase the effective BTUs of the AIR8.  Mixing up the cabin air helps this problem, but the best solution would be to duct air from the ceiling, thereby ensuring one is cooling the hottest air.  I have some ideas on how to do this... Stay tuned.

Please remember the bottom line is Delta Temperature, meaning of course the difference in inlet air temperature vs. outlet air temperature. Even my home unit is only capable of 15 to 20 degrees Delta, but the big difference is that it has sufficient BTU's to continue to lower the inlet air temperature. Whereas these Air8 or Air8+ units based on RFraer's results can certainly do 16 degrees delta but have insufficient BTU's to overcome the thermal load to continue to drive it down.

With that said, respectfully if you were to raise the temperature of the inlet air by drawing in the hottest air it would actually RAISE the outlet temperature accordingly.

I know of only a few ways to improve the efficiency to overcome this problem.

1. A larger unit with more BTU's

2. A refrigerant with different properties to allow the smaller unit to be more efficient

3. Improve the R Value of the camper

Now, I am not saying or suggesting that additional modifications on the underside of the camper may not help, or putting a divider of some sort in place after parking wouldn't be a benefit or that using a fan inside to help circulate the air may not help. If that is something people want to do that is fine, however I am not going to do this much messing around with this. We really do like this 400 BDL but I am not in love with it to the point that I am willing to ignore the simple fact that the Air8 and the Air8+ are both bothersome based on what has been shared by those with the Air8+ at this point.

Some of you have waited for 12 months or more for a resolution, I am not willing to wait that long and I think that if anyone expects me to they maybe better have a pot of coffee and wake up... Pandemic or not, this has obviously been an issue since unit #1 was delivered to a customer who lived in a warmer climate. To have waited for 12 months for the simple programming change is not right. 

It's time, time to pony up and resolve the issue once and for all.

Yes, I am angry... I am angry enough for those of you aren't angry. I have a camper that is not suitable for use for 1/3rd of the year in NC. Sure glad we didn't go to the Outer Banks for vacation earlier this month, it would have been very warm. Owning a camper that dictates where and when you can use it makes no sense to me, I have to be an idiot of the highest level. I bought this knowing there were issues up front, "stupid is as stupid does".

Forrest (formerly known as Brad)

*****Edited by Administrator for numerous uses of inappropriate language. This is a family rated forum and we expect the adults here to abide by nüCampRV’s rules. Verna, T@B Admin

Denny16

The Cool Cat air return is u dear the front dinette on the drivers side, where the Cool Cat is located.  The output ducts are one each on the dinette benches, both sides, and one on the upper closet wall over the rear bunk, which can be set to flow down or up or at an angle.
cheers

tepe50

Dutch061 I'm thoroughly {angry} also. Like you said it's been going on for a year. Then its going to take a couple more months to figure out this may or may not work. Either give us a working camper or our money back. Because what we have is a fair weather camper. I'm sick of the stalling.

****Edited for language. Please use appropriate language. Verna T@B Admin

rh5555

With that said, respectfully if you were to raise the temperature of the inlet air by drawing in the hottest air it would actually RAISE the outlet temperature accordingly.

Yes, but if you draw in hotter air, the AIR8 will have a higher efficiency and cool it more. So you can pull in 90F air and cool it 20F or pull in 80F air and cool it 15F.  Yes the 80F air is now 65F, whereas the 90F air is 70F, but you've removed 90F air from the trailer compared to removing 80F air.  Overall you've gained 5F.

P.S.  I'd really love some users to do a double-blind study with Coolcat and AIR8+ units in trailers side by side.  Then recruit innocent bystanders to be blindfolded and ask them how the units compare when they don't know which trailer is which.

Verna

******Okay, guys, I know you are angry (this is an appropriate word to use), but will you please use language that is appropriate to be seen by the Mennonite and Amish leaders of nüCamp, please?******

AirBoss

Thermodynamics and calculations aside...it's about comfort. Full stop. And if we're asked to travel 6-7 hours, set up camp at 300pm, and wait until 1000 or 1100 until the cabin is remotely "liveable" (e.g within 10 degrees of ambient outdoor temps)...that's entirely unacceptable. 

It's as simple as that from my seat...and I remain hopefull Elwell or nuCamp will fix this. 

twocutes

I feel for all those with a 400.  I have a 320 in Minnesota with an Air8.  We have had more high temps than usual this season and we always have humidity that could compete with the southern U.S., at times.  I have had inconsistent results with the Air8.  I am thrilled I was able to reprogram the fan to continue running when not in cooling mode.  I have liked the dehumidifying setting.  However, the air outlet while in condensing/cooling mode sounds like a small jet.  nuCamp Warranty sent me the scoop and I will install in the next month.  I am not naturally mechanical, but I am logical.  It seems that installing the Air8 cooling unit and temperature sensor at the bottom of the camper was short sighted.  Also, it seems no one took the clamshell owners into consideration for the Air8 output noise.  I realize we are in the minority, but I was surprised.  The noise at the back is enough for people to comment about it, ALL THE TIME.

TNOutback

@twocutes I think you will find that the little air scoop will do amazing things for reducing the amount of noise on the door side of the camper.  I suspect will also improve things behind the camper too.

twocutes

@TNOutback
I hope so!  Thanks!

Dutch061

Verna said:

******Okay, guys, I know you are angry (this is an appropriate word to use), but will you please use language that is appropriate to be seen by the Mennonite and Amish leaders of nüCamp, please?******

Verna, we will have to agree to use "angry, unhappy, upset, disappointed, or similar". Bottom line, I can assure you that if you had a 2020 that you would be right there with the rest of us if you were in an area where life with a "mediocre at best" air conditioner was what you were dealing with.

My apologies to you, NuCamp, and the forum for the words I chose. I didn't feel my language was that harsh, but then again I work in an industry where unfortunately the language is awful.

Forrest

Verna

@Dutch061, without a doubt, I would be angry if in your same shoes, and I do sympathize with all of you 400 Air8 owners. I know how worrisome this is to nüCamp and how they would love to put this behind them.  Elwell will fix the Air8 problems, I have been assured of that. NüCamp is watching and waiting for the solution.

But I do not write words that are offensive to the benefactors of this forum, nor to family members who are embarrassed by those words you don’t think bother them.  

Please also remember I volunteer my time. My best times are when I can read and not be offended for those young and old readers who are not used to inappropriate language. While it may not seem bad to you, others judge you by what you write. You can substitute more appropriate words just for this forum, please.  

Thank you.

Robbarino

I have finally made my a/c tests now on my 2020 tab400 boondock and it is running all afternoon just to get an almost 3 degree drop in temp. It was 91-93 outside and just now at 5pm did the inside temp drop from starting temp of 82.4 to finally 79.7 (all shades were closed). Still way too hot inside to be comfortable.

is it a possibility to install a Cool Cat in my camper?  My 2007 tab Dutchman with a Cool Cat that I traded in was a freezing meat locker in comparison. Please tell me how you think it is best to contact NuCamp about this issue while it is still in warranty. (Email or phone). I appreciate your guidance and would like to respectfully add my data to this project. I feel like I paid premium dollars for the best and I am hopeful they will resolve my issue too.

thanks,
Robbarino

Sharon_is_SAM

@Robbarino

Here is a quote from the first page of this post:

” IF your Air8 on the T@B 400 is not performing adequately, you must contact your dealer to have them take care of your warranty claim. If you want to double check to make sure your T@B 400 is on a warranty claim list, send an email to customerservice@nucamprv.com and to warranty@nucamprv.com. Be sure to have your VIN available to reference it in any correspondence, plus your dealer’s name.”

grsiepka

"customercare@nucamp.com and to warranty@nucamprv.com"

Hi just wondering, should that be customercare@nucamprv.com? I sent email last week to customercare@nucamp.com and got email bounced back like that wasn't valid.

(Please note updates to email addresses:  customerservice@nucamprv.com and warranty@nucamprv.com.  Sharon)

Verna

@grsiepka, yes, you are correct. I corrected the post. 

jonn

TNOutback said:

Google “Truma sound muffler” and you’ll find a solution to the interior noise.  Not sure how you get one in the States though. 

Truma Saphir appears to be the same unit as  the Air8, has anyone contacted DOMETIC RV in Australia and asking if they are they having similar problems that are happening with some of the NuCamp Tabs? 

1968Healey

Has anybody contacted nuCamp about a recall of the 2020 T@B 400’s with the Air8 unit?  We’re over a year into this debacle, the replacement unit isn’t sufficient and (look back to my previous post), nuCamp never notified pre-order buyers about this change.  

johnfconway

1968Healey said:

nuCamp never notified pre-order buyers about this change.  

Nor did dealers notify buyers of 2020s in early 2020. Our 2020 was made in January 2020 and purchased in April. Not a peep from either Nucamp or dealer. Unfortunately we did not know this forum existed. Had we, we would have waited for 2021 model and foregone the "great deal".

Verna

@1968Healey, as the first post on this discussion says:

” IF your Air8 on the T@B 400 is not performing adequately, you must contact your dealer to have them take care of your warranty claim. If you want to double check to make sure your T@B 400 is on a warranty claim list, send an email to 
customerservice@nucamprv.com and to warranty@nucamprv.com. Be sure to have your VIN available to reference it in any correspondence, plus your dealer’s name. 

Above all, be nice, please. The nüCamp workers are doing their job and will do everything they can to get your Air8 problems rectified.”

(Email addresses updated.  Sharon)

Dutch061

Verna said:

@1968Healey, as the first post on this discussion says:

” IF your Air8 on the T@B 400 is not performing adequately, you must contact your dealer to have them take care of your warranty claim. If you want to double check to make sure your T@B 400 is on a warranty claim list, send an email to customerservice@nucamprv.com and to warranty@nucamprv.com. Be sure to have your VIN available to reference it in any correspondence, plus your dealer’s name. 

Above all, be nice, please. The nüCamp workers are doing their job and will do everything they can to get your Air8 problems rectified.”

I would like to suggest that NuCamp contact the owners of 400's to provide an accurate timeline of the resolution and what options are available to us. Then, everyone would have the same information from the same source without modification. This could put this thread to sleep for good.  As mentioned previously by many others and myself, this issue was must have been realized by someone over 12 months ago at this point.

To be sitting with a camper that can't be used (comfortably) during the the summer months (when most people camp) is frustrating (at best) is compounded by not having any idea of the resolution or timeline. I realize that "NuCamp stands behind it's vendors" and is giving ElWell sufficient time to develop a resolution is "what business partners do". With that being said, ElWell has likely been aware of this issue for over 12 months at this time too. Most of us feel like we are caught in the middle and we shouldn't be.

This is my last post regarding ANYTHING to do with the Air8, I have said way more than necessary more than once.

Brad

(Edited to reflect updated email addresses.  Sharon 8/5/20)

tepe50

I’ve contacted Nucamp about this and asked when this was going to be resolved because it’s taking too long and they said they are sorry it’s taking so long and that I should contact Elwell to find out when the resolution is gonna happen. So I called Elwell to get their response and they seem to think the solar panel is heating up inside of the camper. They said they were going to get back to me by the other day that was a week ago still no phone call. It seems like they might be blaming each other  unfortunately that means were caught in the middle

DINDAnLAN

I totally agree with Verna’s comment above. I think highly of the folks at NuCamp.
With that being said both Dutch061 and tepe50 are right. We are being put in the middle. A manufacture should not direct you to the supplier for updates. NuCamp should be the sole source for info on this issue. IMHO

Verna

Hey, @DINDAnLAN, that is a quote from nüCamp from the first page of this discussion. I am just the messenger. 

And please remember that we Admins and Moderators are unpaid volunteers. We like to think we are helping by donating our time.  

crohrbacher

So I contacted Elwell the other day with this message:

From: Charles Rohrbacher

Message Body:
Currently own a 2020 nuCamp T@B 400, and was inquiring about the timeline to get the unit repaced/upgraded under warranty. I've contacted nuCamp warranty on May 19th and was told:

"Elwell is working on a replacement unit for the current AIR 8.  We hope to have a better completion time for that within the next 3 weeks or so.  We will put you on a list to have your AC replaced.  Elwell will either send a Tech to do the replacement or direct you dealer on how to do the install. Nothing will have to be changed in your camper.  They new A/C will fit in place of the one now.  Let us know if you have any questions."

If you need it, here is my VIN: {removed from public view}

Thank you for your time.

And I got this response (on 6 Aug 2020):

Good afternoon,

We are still waiting for an update as well.
If I get any new updates, I will let you know.

Thank you,

Josh Elwell
Elwell Service Department
680 S. 28th St Suite C
Washougal, WA 98671
360-608-0916g 2020):

Edited to remove VIN from public view for owner’s safety—Verna, T@B Admin

ChrisFix

@crohrbacher
You might want to delete your VIN from your post...