Winterizing the 2021 Tab 320 - questions

Kentsb

Captenaj said:

A lot a great information here! I am going to try the belts and suspenders method, meaning blow out the lines then add antifreeze. Why? Because I don't trust either method completely. Thanks for all the help.

I am wondering how much antifreeze the system will hold?

Denny16

The TaB320 has one yellow pressure relief valve on the Alde heater.  The TaB400 has two Alde Yellow pressure relief valves, one on the Alde heater and one on the Flo aux hot water tank.  Open both up to drain the hot water from the system.  

I think the confusion is the discussion is switching back sdi forth between the 320 and the 400, both of which have different Nautilus control panels.   The 400 has its Alde bypass (red) valve on the Nautilus, whilst the 320 has it on the Left side of the Nautilus compartment.  Other differences also exist, but the basic process is the same, given the minor valve arrangement differences.

If you use an adapter to blow air into the city water connection, that should clear water out of the lines between the fill point and the fixtures, switch the Nautilus to tank fill, with the tank drained and drain valve open, compressed air will clear the pump intake and out flow lines also.  This looks like a two step process, but once done, should clear the water lines on both sides of the water system.

I wish I had as simple water manifold control panel for my homestead water system, which has two (soon to be three) water pumps, two wells, a 3,700 gallon storage tank, with separate untreated and treated water lines, two pressure tanks and one electric boiler with a blow down valve, and with manifold distribution valves in three different places, in three different buildings.  Their is also one air pump, and an Ozone treatment system, with its valves.  The TaB is simple by comparison.  

Sharon_is_SAM

DougH said:

A question for hydrodynamic experts.  I've added heating to everything in the basement, but in the pic below the yellow arrow points to the intake line that goes from the fresh water tank up to the water pump.

When you drain the fresh water tank during winterization, the garden hose fill line, the drain tube line, and the tank are emptied.  There's no way to blow these out with much pressure, but there's no need.

However, that line up to the water pump won't necessarily release its water if the water pump makes a good seal at the left connection to the ShureFlo pump.  So it could possibly freeze.

You could disconnect the intake tube from the water pump and let it drain, or even use pressure to blow it out after draining the tank, and while the fresh water drain valve is still open.

But I don't normally hear that discussed during the blowout method winterization, or in the PDFs so far.

Should it be?

In the early days of many T@Bs, some bits of foam insulation in the fresh tank is picked up and we have to clean out the filter and then blow air down the intake line to clear it.  I had to do that a few times in the first six months of use.  This would be the same action... but as part of the blowout winterization process.

Even those who use a secondary valve to pull RV antifreeze into all the lines instead of from the fresh tank, may not be servicing this intake line to the water pump.

Or am I fretting about nothing, and when draining the fresh tank, the water pump is not so well sealed that the intake line will also drain.  We could just unhook the line from the water pump whenever draining the fresh tank, and that would likely let gravity do enough.

What do the experts think?

@Doug, in the 320 winterization instructions that I created I list disconnecting both sides of the pump and the option of running the pump dry.  I would think if anything much was left in that line the pump would pick it up.  Also, with the tongue up, I suspect gravity will help clear the line.  

4ncar

@DougH yes, disconnect the water pump, as you have indicated.  I also suggest disconnecting the toilet feed line so that water in the flush valve is released (even after blowout of lines). Lastly remove both shower hoses.  One year 8 failed to do this, and there was enough water remaining in the outside hose that back flowed into the faucets & cracked the unit.

DougH

@Sharon_is_SAM Excellent. My feeble old eyes just missed that line when I read it through the previous time.  @4ncar Thanks, in hindsight I don't think I would have added the option for an outside shower to my 2017.  Not much flow, even for rinsing muddy stuff.

4ncar

@DougH re is a restricter in the spay end of the outdoor shower. Some saunits removable, I don’t recall, but I drilled mine out. Much better flow! FYI.

MarkAl

As this will be my first "Winterizing" season, I needed to get a compressor as I didn't trust flaying away on a bike pump. So I bought a nicer 12V model (15amp) that can be set up to 120 psi (for our bikes). So went through draining the lines today and hooked up the compressor per the instructions (45 degrees and City water w/ the air) set the pressure to 40 psi and let it rip. Expected to open the sink faucets and get a spurt of water then air.... Nothing in fact I was seeing on the gauge only about 7.5 psi so I was passng air someplace just not the faucets.
So am I doing something wrong or need a bigger (MORE POWER - thanks Tim Taylor) compressor? what should I expect...  Check the operation of the compressor on the tires, they were 47 and it pumped to 50 then shut off so it seems to work.

Sharon_is_SAM

@MarkAl - we have a Viair compressor.  It is wimpy and we must wait for the pressure to build in between opening individual faucets.  Not sure about the Nautilus.  How were your valves arranged?  Was the Alde valve under the bench closed as you were trying to increase the pressure?

MarkAl

I'm going to play more today with this as I just bought the new compressor to try it and realized I didn't know what to expect. The valves were at 45 degrees but the low point drains, bypass and Alde were for normal dry camp operation. I had previously drained it and put it back to dry camp and really just moved the levers and connected the air. Thinking back, with the faucets closed I expected to see 40 psi on the gauge but saw 7.5 so maybe the tank vent was not allowing the pressure to build or I had another valve open that shouldn't be. I think when opening the faucet the pressure should push water out then go to 0 and I didn't see that. Duh... questions I didn't think to ask when reading ".. use a compressor to flush the lines..."

jkjenn

I have a 5 gallon (oileless) Bosch for home and a portable ARB for travel. The Bosch is a really nice fit for blowing out the lines at home. I may have to blow out the lines on my 330 on this trip and we will see how it does. It airs up the tires farrier I deflate them pretty quickly.

sptucker

@MarkAl You don't want the valves at 45 degrees when you are blowing the lines out.  A 45 degree ball valve is neither fully closed nor open, so who knows where the air is going... Gonna be difficult to pressurize anything with that setting.

MarkAl

The Nautilus 2.5 manual says to have them this way. What is your suggestion? 

MarkAl

@sptucker You were correct the manual seems to be wrong or I misinterpreted it. I set the valves to Winterize and it pressurized as expected. My pump goes to the set pressure and stops so it took repeated (many) to clear the water. Also found out doing this to the cassette toilet results in a fair mess of water on the floor. Be warned. So I guess I'm now set for winter Thanks for the comments!

Sharon_is_SAM

So, what’s with the valves at 45 degree angles?  

sptucker

I’m guessing they want you to leave them at 45° when you are finished to prevent the possibility of the valves freezing.  This is a common practice with ball valves, and is what I have always done with my home sprinkler valves over the winter months.

ScottG

DougH said:

...
Or am I fretting about nothing, and when draining the fresh tank, the water pump is not so well sealed that the intake line will also drain.  We could just unhook the line from the water pump whenever draining the fresh tank, and that would likely let gravity do enough.
...

@DougH, I may not be an expert, but I'd bet more than a few nickels that once you have drained the FW tank any residual water in the line to the pump is also going to run back out and out the drain. Even if the pump could keep all that water suctioned into the line, running the pump for a few seconds would clear it out.

Some owners who use the blowout method (including me) do disconnect the pump leads as you described, and even run a little antifreeze through the pump itself to chase out any residual water. I'm not sure that last step is strictly necessary, but it does offer a little extra insurance when one is not filling the whole system with antifreeze.

So yep, I think you are fretting about nothing...  ;-)

SusanD

I have a 2021 tab 320 and just finished winterizing today - I hope successfully.  I completely agree with comments that Nucamp should have done a video on this or provided some explanation. My water system under the seat is absolutely nothing like what is pictured by them online - to the extent that there were no drain valves that I could see, except the Alde pressure valve. The process I used was just like the Travels with Delaney video on YouTube, with a couple of changes. First, they have 3 drain valves in the Nautilus unit, I have 2. My water heater drain seems to be the big yellow Alde pressure valve under the seat. Then, they added antifreeze via their water pump, I added it via the Nautilus pump outside.  Nucamp said to add 5 gallons to the fresh water tank, but that clearly isn't possible. As far as I can tell, the Nautilus pump only works when a tap is open so nothing seems to be staying in the tank. That said, what I did is pretty much similar to that video so I think it's all good. Fingers crossed!

Sharon_is_SAM

@SusanD - when you added antifreeze to your plumbing using the Nautilus, if the blue valve was horizontal, AF did not go to the fresh water tank - it went directly to the lines and fixtures.  That is the beauty of the system.  No need to waste water in the spring flushing AF out of the fresh tank.  

ChanW

@DougH, I agree with @ScottG re the pump line. 

I've always simply run the pump dry for a little bit (these pumps are fine to run dry) - maybe 10-30 seconds - til it sounds waterless. Haven't had a problem with it (knock wood).

Any problems I've had with winterizing using the blow-out method were user error: 

• Forgot to blow out the toilet supply valve - cracked valve.
• Neglected to protect the black tank gate-valve with antifreeze - cracked gate-slide
• Thought the Alde could keep the Tab warm while driving in 5° weather - heh! stalagmite in kitchen sink! (no damage)

The one year I used the antifreeze method, it took way too many rinses to get the antifreeze out of the lines - but I was inexperienced, should have used good vodka!

DougH

@ChanW Nooooooooo, not the good stuff!  

Tabdrinker

I think this video provides good instructions for winterizing the 2021 320S https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRjhpGmm5oY
I'm getting mine in November, so haven't tried it yet!

ScottG

DougH said:

@ChanW Nooooooooo, not the good stuff!  

I think vodka's a great idea. No de-winterizing needed, just tap it off when you start your first camp of the season!  ;-)

KCode

@Tabdrinker Excellent video with one important exception:the Alde bypass valve was not addressed before he demonstrated adding antifreeze. It clearly had been turned to the bypass mode for that part of the video but never mentioned. 

Tabnero

ScottG said:

DougH said:

@ChanW Nooooooooo, not the good stuff!  

I think vodka's a great idea. No de-winterizing needed, just tap it off when you start your first camp of the season!  ;-)

I dont know about that. The antifreeze recommended is without alcohol to protect fittings.

ScottG

Tabnero said:

ScottG said:

DougH said:

@ChanW Nooooooooo, not the good stuff!  

I think vodka's a great idea. No de-winterizing needed, just tap it off when you start your first camp of the season!  ;-)

I dont know about that. The antifreeze recommended is without alcohol to protect fittings.

Good point. That's why I stick with the blowout method for winterizing and leave the vodka in the bottle where I can apply it directly to my own fittings...

Tabnero

ok, that is funny

ashkinb

@MarkAl and @sptucker.  Hello - total newbie here.  If the Nautilus 2.5 manual is incorrect about the valves at 45degrees for using a compressor to blow out the lines, could you please describe the correct process for clearing all water out of the  lines to the faucet, shower(s) and Thetford flush system?  Thank you!

MarkAl

Put the valves in the "Winterize position" that is shown right after the blow out sequence and then put the compressed air in to blow out the lines as described. One at a time open and close the sink then the bath sink, then flush the toilet, then go outside and do the shower. This is done after you drain both hot and cold low point drains (red and blue valves in the Nautilus box). After this is done. I probably will suck a little anti-freeze into the pump and allow the pump to put some into both sinks and shower drains with enough in the gray tank to dribble some out the gray water drain.  BTW, this is my first winter - I did a practice run a few weeks ago and it sounds more intimidating than it is. The older systems sound more complicated.

ashkinb

@MarkAl Thank you!

MikeWright01

I have a newly purchased 2021 T@B 320 S and have been struggling with the same questions.  This video was most helpful to me.  You might find it helpful as well <br><br>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRjhpGmm5oY<br><br>&nbsp;

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What the video doesn't show is initially when blowing out the water lines with compressed air, the Heater bypass valve is in normal mode.&nbsp; When filling the water lines with antifreeze, the Heater bypass valve is in "Bypass" to keep antifreeze out of the Alde water tank.<br>