Alde System

TabberJohn

Okay, I officially give up trying to locate all the different threads about Alde.

ericnliz

TabberJohn, Ah come on, don't be shy! Just bookmark the ones that are important to you, and it will save you a lot of time searching later.

AlanWrench

Wanderoo said:

Alde system shakedown . . . I visited my T@B today with an intention of familiarizing myself with the Alde system. I found my Glycol overflow reservoir, and it is located at the very rear underneath a panel secured by two screws. I remember asking the RV dealer what was behind that panel, and he said, Oh, don't worry about it, you'll never have to get there. (That should have been my first clue that the dealer doesn't really know how this new system operates.) I unscrewed the panel and found my reservoir. It did have an appropriate amount of fluid (Glycol?) in it. There is a plastic tube leading from the reservoir about 6 inches long that attaches to nothing, which could quite possibly be the "bleeder tube" referenced in the manual. (see picture). Secondly, I found the two "hidden" fuses referenced by a Yahoo Group user. (See photo.) I popped out the plastic fuse holder and will take it to an electronics shop to get several additional fuses in the event it blows. I had to put the rear seat in the "up" position, and then popped off the plastic top of the Alde. Now I am a little confused as to which way it needs to go back in, because as you can see, the left side is "upside" down vs. the right side, much like a positive and negative for a battery. Oh, golly, gee. Will keep you posted. :-S

AlanWrench

You saved my butt with the "hidden" fuses info. While I was on hold with my RV dealer's service department, I found and resolved my lack of heat while camping in northern Michigan. I thank you as did the service department tech.

source3

A little confused.  Per the Alde USA manual for the simple 3010 control panel, one lighting bolt is to turn on electric cartridge (element) number 1.  Two lighting bolts is to turn on electric cartridge for number 2.  Three lighting bolts is to turn on both.  Simple enough, setting 1 has cartridge 2 off.  Setting 2 has cartridge 1 off.  I am omitting the whole 120/220 V and kW and Watt as that has already been fully discussed.  For those taht missed it, each element in the USA version of the Alde is 950 watts.  The confusion is which is cartridge 1 and cartridge 2?  Has anyone confirmed whether we can assume the 1KW element is energized with 1 lighting bolt and element 2 is energized with two lighting bolts. 



This got me thinking this past weekend camping out in 10 def F and using heat only.  I started off with the 2 lighting bolt setting.  For kicks, I switch down to lighting 1 sometime during the night and after a few hours the unit was no longer heating, the pump was circulating.  I had to turn the propane on.  What I am trying to figure out is which element would heat the glycol the fastest.  I would think that the 1KW element releates to one lighting bolt.  Review the above diagram, that should heat the glycol the fastest. 

Now, for summer when I want hot water only, if 2KW element relates to two lighting bolts that would heat the potable water faster, according to the diagram.

Clear as mud?  I have an email into Alde to see their thoughts.

ScottG

@source3, I'm a little confused as well. My understanding from the US/Can Alde literature is constant with your initial description--there are two identical elements (950W each) and the analog control panel (which is a holdover from the European models) allows you to select one, the other, or both.

If that is the case, it theoretically shouldn't matter which of the two single elements you activate. The change you made in the middle of the night should not have reduced your heat output, so I'm stumped as to why you apparently lost your heat when you went to the "one lightening bolt" setting. Perhaps that element is not functioning? Perhaps the 120V power supply required to run the heating elements was interrupted (via GFCI or circuit breaker) when you changed the setting?

The diagram you provide looks as though it may be for the European Alde. Those models do feature different-sized elements of apprx. 1kW and 2kW. The higher voltages used in Europe presumably allow for higher wattage elements than what could be run on an ordinary North American 120V circuit. To achieve the maximum ~2kW output on a North American Alde you would need to select both element by using the "three lightening bolt" setting.

source3

True, the diagram is the European model.  I would think that Alde would just swap out the elements with 950 what models so the diagram still applies.  Just substitute 1kW, 2KW with 950 watts.

In two weeks I will be preparing for another trip.  During prep I will see if element one is bad.  All breakers and fuses were fine.  I hardly camp where there is electricity so I will have to experiment a little to see if I can find what went wrong where.

Sharon_is_SAM

I seem to remember that 2 and 3 lightening bolts is the same in the US.  Everything is additive, meaning, when 2 is selected, you get more heat output as both elements are on.  According to the Alde tech that I spoke with today, Page 17 in the online Alde manual is correct:  B (1 lightening bolt) is for the first element, C (2 lightening bolts) controls the second unit and D operates both elements together.   So in essence:  1 and 2 lightening bolts are the same and D is additive.

It also directs that if both propane and electric are selected, the electrical cartridge heats up first and the LP boiler starts when the room temperature drops 2 - 4 degrees.  I think since you did not have your propane selected on the control panel, heating your Tab with only 1 element was not enough to maintain cabin heat at 10 degrees F, but because the propane was not turned on, it could not kick in.  It sounds like it was too cold for the Alde to make a difference on 1 element.  I suspect that 2 elements would have kept you toasty, even without the LP. 

ericnliz

For U.S. models with the digital screen, 2 lightning bolts is all you're gonna get. Electrical power is the first choice the Alde picks, followed by propane (even with the propane turned on). As @Sam said above to the propane turning on, that's just the way it works, with a drop in temperature before the propane will kick in for the boiler.

source3

SAM said:

I seem to remember that 2 and 3 lightening bolts is the same in the US.  Everything is additive, meaning, when 2 is selected, you get more heat output as both elements are on.  .....

I pondered this too, a cumulative effect.  I will post up when (if) I have an answer from Alde USA.

Sharon_is_SAM

The digital panel does not make a distinction between 1 or 2 elements, rather it is OFF, step 1, then step 2.  The arrow assumes an increase in the electrical power - thus additive (both elements).  This is different from the analog control panel that has 4 positions:  OFF, B - 1 element, C - the other element, D - both elements.

ScottG

There seems to be several different interpretations being batted about here.

Page 17 of the US/Can Alde manual specifies the functions of the 214 analog control panel.

(FYI, the corresponding European manual is nearly identical except electrical cartridges 1 and 2 are listed at 1050W and 2100W respectively, for a combined total of 3150W.)

Jeffrho

What is the time you all are having to raise the temperature in the unit with electric only? Two hours to go from 41 degree to 64. Seems a littler slow to me. Just picked up from dealer and working on getting familiar with the system. Thanks you,

ScottG

I don't use the cabin heat much, but I can tell you the Alde will heat water to "way-too-hot-to-touch" in about fifteen minutes. That suggests the heating elements themselves work pretty quickly.

However, heating up a space depends on several variables. Twenty-three degrees is a pretty big spread to cover is a small space that isn't particularly good at holding heat. 

lapowers57

I believe the ALDE is much more efficient when running on gas.  Even if I am plugged in I the d to run the ALDE on gas.  

ScottG

lapowers57 said:

I believe the ALDE is much more efficient when running on gas.  Even if I am plugged in I the d to run the ALDE on gas.  

Your observation would be consistent with the unit specs. Page 18 of the US/Can Alde manual describes the output on propane as 3.3kW and 5.5kW.

I'm not sure why there are two outputs listed for propane. I'm not a heating engineer, so I don't know if we are comparing apples to apples here, but both those numbers are a lot higher than the maximum 1.8kW available from the electric elements.

This is probably why the propane heaters (if turned on) will kick on to supplement the electric elements if the cabin temp drops more than a couple degrees.

source3

ScottG said:

There seems to be several different interpretations being batted about here.

Page 17 of the US/Can Alde manual specifies the functions of the 214 analog control panel.

(FYI, the corresponding European manual is nearly identical except electrical cartridges 1 and 2 are listed at 1050W and 2100W respectively, for a combined total of 3150W.)

So, setting C=D? 



Since we are in the USA, we are limited to the amount of watts that can be supplied by 120V system.  Given a 1900W element max (950*2) setting C=D.  Unless the Alde is connected to a 220V line which is beyond the scope of this discussion.

Element (W)	Volts	Amps	Watts
950	120	15	1800
950	120	20	2400
1900	120	30	3600

Sharon_is_SAM

 @source3 - agree.  Setting C = D.   Also, I think it is a misinterpretation to assume that the first cartridge is turned off when C is selected - it only says that the second cartridge is turned on.  C turns on the second cartridge in addition to the first.  Check out the JKJenn Oct. 2014 posts abive with explanation by Alde.  Also, the LPG starts at 5.5 kw and reduces to 3.3 kw, hence the two values.  DurangoTab posted a reply in 2014 by Alde that was good info.


Scott is correct below:  B and C represent 2 separate elements and D combines both for the 1900 watt output. It is true that the LPG starts at 5.3 and reduces to 3.3 kw.  As a result, the addition of LPG to your attempts to heat the cabin result in the fastest warm up.


@source3 and @Jeffrho - TaB electric heating is limited to 1900 watts (1.9 kw) and the propane minimum effect is 3.3 kw,
so heat  output and speed with the highest electric will always be slower than heating solely with LPG ( starts at 5.5 kw).  Also, be aware of the effects of voltage loss by adding an extension cord - you may end up with less than 110 volts being delivered and that will impact the Alde output on electric.  Lastly, when ambient temps are very low, the fastest heat up occurs by using both electric and LPG.  The propane kicks on with the electric (controlled by the thermostat) and you get a combined 5.5 kw + 1.9 kw of power.  Once you reach your set cabin temperature, the Alde turns off the LPG part of the boiler.  At that point, if it is not too cold outside, you may be able to get away with just electric (D).  So, your analog controller should be D + F.  

This entire post is a worthwhile read starting back in 2014 when LG introduced the Alde.  Unfortunately, the Alde manual still leaves a lot to be desired.  It really is pretty straight forward, but the operation is not spelled out very well in layman’s terms.  Anyway, hope this helped.

Sharon

ScottG

I do not interpret C as being equal to D. Based on how the 214 analog panel works with the European models, I interpret C as activating only the second element.

In European models, this allows for a true three levels of heating: Element 1 only ("B") @ 1050W, Element 2 only "C" @ 2100W, or both elements ("D") at 3150W.

Presumably, the 120V limitation on North American power supplies necessitated the conversion to two identical 950W elements. However, I highly doubt that Alde rewired the circuitry of their control panel in making this change. I maintain that the US/Can Alde manual may be interpreted literally and that the apparently odd lightening bolt settings are a holdover from the European configuration.

Until there's definitive evidence to the contrary, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!  :-) 

Sharon_is_SAM

Scott, I understand, but here is another question:  how can anyone change from an analog panel to a digital panel where the digital panel does not address a separate second single element?  So, the digital control panel goes from step 1 (1 element) to step 2 (2 elements).  Now I need to check out the Alde Europe digital panel.  

Has anyone tested the heat output of the second element relative to the first (B vs C)?  I’m not challenging here, I just want to understand the system.

ScottG

It appears the European versions use the Alde 613 digital panel, whereas the 614 is used in the US.

The instructions for the 613 do indicate that three settings are available for models equipped for 1kW-2kW-3kW operation.

The 614 apparently does not give you a choice of which single 950W element to activate on the lower setting. Sometime the difference in these things is as simple as setting a small switch on the internal circuit board.

Sharon_is_SAM

So, I called Alde and got through!  Talked to Spencer and I was WRONG!  The C setting on the Alde analog control panel is NOT additive, only the D setting is additive.  I will try to edit my bad above!!

Well - I learned something, and not just how to strike through my comments:)

ScottG

Ha! That'll teach you for doubting something you read on an online forum--written by a moderator no less!  :-)

(Nice work!)

Sharon_is_SAM

So much for my logic Scott!  So, I wonder if anyone rotates using the 2 different elements for heating?

ScottG

SAM said:

So much for my logic Scott!  So, I wonder if anyone rotates using the 2 different elements for heating?

Yes they do.  ;-)

Sharon_is_SAM

That’s one...

DougH

@Sharon_is_SAM ; @ScottG ; Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but it was exactly on point... maybe.

Just winter camped in Colorado.   The -19F temperature near Alamosa did in my TV's old battery.  But aside from that I did learn a couple lessons.. 

First, the Norcold fridge isn't an oven.  Sounds obvious.  If it's -15F or a balmy -5F and you've got stuff in the fridge, don't expect it to stay at 40F.  It morphs itself into a freezer.  So you can just turn it off and occasionally open the door to warm it up.

Next, with the Alde digital 3010 using only electric on "1" (950W) the camper was lucky to achieve 50F.  But on setting "2" (950W * 2???) it was able to hit 55F.  However, if I put it back on,"1" and instead ran a 700W space heater I could maintain 65F.  All Alde fuses okay.

So in the thread above regarding the second circuit on the Alde electric, I have some anecdotal evidence that "2" is not simply twice "1".

klenger

I cannot speak to the performance of stage 1 and stage 2, but I can address the actual power consumption.  Mine is a new 2019 320S with the Alde 3020 (which may not be the same as yours).  I just installed a Progressive Industries EMS, which provides real-time 120 VAC current use in amps.  With the Alde on 1, it used about 9 amps and on 2 it used about 18 amps, so from a power consumption perspective, 2 is twice as much as 1.  That may not translate into 2x the performance.  In any case, the T@B is a 3 season above freezing RV, I'd say you did OK at -15°.  Stay safe.  

Sharon_is_SAM

@DougH, while I have not experienced those temperatures myself (and I don’t intend to), to get the fastest warm up in a deep freeze, you need to use both electric on “2” AND LPG   Since the system always defaults to electric, once you reach your inside temperature, the LPG shuts off.  It turns back on again when the temp. drops a couple degrees.  Also, maintaining temperature is easier than warming all the surrounding materials that make up the TaB.  ((See quote below from this thread.).  I would also note, the radiant heat requires open vents and good air flow and will never have the immediate sensation of warmth that you get with a space heater.

Did you start with electric on 2?  

“TaB electric heating is limited to 1900 watts (1.9 kw) and the propane minimum effect is 3.3 kw, 
so heat  output and speed with the highest electric will always be slower than heating solely with LPG ( starts at 5.5 kw).  Also, be aware of the effects of voltage loss by adding an extension cord - you may end up with less than 110 volts being delivered and that will impact the Alde output on electric.  Lastly, when ambient temps are very low, the fastest heat up occurs by using both electric and LPG.  The propane kicks on with the electric (controlled by the thermostat) and you get a combined 5.5 kw + 1.9 kw of power.  Once you reach your set cabin temperature, the Alde turns off the LPG part of the boiler.  At that point, if it is not too cold outside, you may be able to get away with just electric.”

DougH

@Sharon_is_SAM : You're right, it would have been warmer with the propane added, and from what y'all have already researched, if the electric couldn't come close to the desired temperature on the thermostat, the propane would have simply stayed on, contributing another 3kW of effective power.

This was more an experiment in efficiency. I wasn't concerned with the how quickly I could get up to temperature; more what steady state temperature could be achieved long term over hours on just the two electric settings. 

I think @klenger put it well that twice the wattage won't equal 2X the performance.  A 600Hp car won't do the quarter mile in half the time of a 300Hp car. I did make sure the vents were unblocked, but had the camper in bed mode during the multi-night experiment.

And it turns out a forced fan space heater at less power (700W vs 950W of second circuit), was considerably more effective (using two separated thermometers).  But anecdotal...  one person alone may just have an impaired second circuit. Although in engineering nothing ever scales up linearly, so I would expect others to get similar results.

Takeaway:  In subzero temps, bring an extra space heater, and a smallish one will do?  Besides, it may be a reasonable backup for safety, in case the Alde goes out.  Despite that, it's very impressive our NuCamps can stay warm even in arctic weather conditions!