Changing out the Alde fluid.

ScottG

Nice work @gregndeb! The tank adapters are awesome. I'd been mulling this idea myself as a way to avoid opening lines and incorporating extra fittings (as per my original proposal) but it had yet to get beyond the vague idea stage. Nice to know they can be easily constructed, and--more importantly --that they work!

Given your experience, I think your adapters are the way to go. I also still think this same basic scheme could work with a hand pump--both for emptying the reservoir and refilling the glycol. While the motorized pumps are clearly superior, I'd really like to keep this as cheap and simple as possible given how infrequently I intend to do it.

However, any testing with the manual pump is several weeks away as the T@B is still in hibernation and other tasks are currently taking precedence. I'll also need to fashion your adapters but given your detailed instructions that looks pretty straightforward.  :-)

gregndeb

Keep me posted how yours works.  Since our T@B doesn't have a bathroom, I had some headroom above the tank.  It would be beneficial to see if it works in other T@B models too.

ScottG

Will do. I think I even have some small drilled stoppers in my collection that will be conscripted for making the adapters.  :-)

I've thought of the headroom issue as well. Though access may be a little more awkward in some cases, I'm pretty sure there is enough in the older 320 S-models and the 400s. 320 CS-S and (I think) newer S-models have the tank behind a door in the bath. However, from what little info I have, I still think there will be enough room for the adapters if they are kept as short as possible.

ChanW

I'll be interested in your results with the hand pump, @ScottG.

I'm wondering if one reason @gregndeb's setup was successful was because of the relatively high GPM of the pump, similar to the factory pump, and able to push that volume of fluid better.

Also, don't I remember something about flushing it out first with distilled water? That would be a good way to be sure it was all out, before replacing it with fresh. Just watch for the color changes.

Dutch061

Have any of you searched YouTube for "change Alde fluid", there are plenty of procedures and videos to choose from. In the one I watched they recommended flushing with de-ionized water first. Was a straight forward procedure that takes a small 12 volt submersible pump.

4-25 the de-ionized water was used just to make sure that all of the existing coolant had been flushed from the system. Easier to see the transition when going from coolant to clear water than coolant to coolant. An alternative is of course distilled water, the goal being not to introduce any metals or minerals into the system during the coolant exchange operation. In addition, by not draining the system, you end up with a minimal amount of air in the system to bleed out.

Brad

ScottG

@ChanW, I suspect it's less about having a high flow rate then about generating sufficient pressure to push along 2+ gallons of fluid. Based on @tybladesmith's experience relayed earlier in the thread, the hand pump should be up to the task. The hand pump probably wouldn't be able to duplicated the recirculating function @gregndeb's rig was capable of, but reports to date suggest that the Alde's automatic bleeder is up the task of removing air if necessary (particularly if you haven't introduced much air to begin with).

I do recall a distilled water flush being mentioned, though if memory serves it was more indicated if the glycol "looked" degraded or if there was other evidence of sediment in the system. It certainly couldn't hurt, though you would want to ensure the water was then fully flushed so as not to dilute the glycol. It could cost you a little extra glycol to accomplish this.

@Dutch061, I haven't poked around much on YouTube other than looking at official Alde videos, though I'm not surprised that a submersible pump could be successfully employed for the task as well. If you've found a video that you think is particularly helpful, please post a link!

Cbusguy

I would not let DI water dwell in the alde for any length of time.......

Had some lab staff put DI water in a auto drip coffee maker for about 3 months before the water heater was completely eroded to the point it leaked all over the counter.     Now we are talking 16-18 Meg water meant to run through chemistry analyzers

PNWtabber

Good info in this discussion.  I have only had my 2018 T@B 320S for a week and am eager to take it on a trip or two before needing to winterize it.  The person I bought it from mentioned that I should probably change the glycol -- I see in the Alde manual they recommend changing it every 2 years.  I have a few questions (I realize some may be buried in this discussion and I will continue to read through it but ...).

1. The glycol in the expansion tank is low.  Can I just add glycol and do a few shake down trips this fall and plan to do the replacement later?  How strict is the "2 year" period?
2. The manual describes adding glycol and bleeding the system, but I am not seeing where to drain the glycol from.  Am I just missing it?  If it is in this discussion I will try to find it.
3. The manual says to check the pH of the glycol/water mix in the system, but it does not say (that I can find) what pH is desirable.

Thanks so much.  This forum is amazing!

Bayliss

@PNWtabber, 

1.  YES, you can add glycol to the expansion tank.  You should fill it approximately 1/2" above the minimum ("MIN") fill line, which is hard to see, but is marked on the side of the expansion tank.  The 2 year time frame is recommended, but I would say it really depends on how much you use the Alde.  You might re-contact the previous owner to get a general idea of how much they used their Alde system.
  
2.  The low point for draining the glycol is in the same general area of the hot and cold water low point drain valves, all of which are generally located under the trailer behind the driver's side wheel/tire.  There is a red plug at the end of the glycol drain hose.

3.  The ph for New Century Chemical TF-1 Heat Transfer fluid (the recommended glycol fluid for the Alde), is 8.8, so as long as you are in that general area, you are good to go.  I have read that if it gets to 7 or below, it can cause damage to the aluminum inside the tank.

PNWtabber

@Bayliss -- thanks so much.  I have checked with O'Reilly's and NAPA stores in my area and they do not seem to carry the New Century Chemical TF-1 Heat Transfer fluid.  Is Amazon the best supplier?

Verna

@PNWtabber, yes, Amazon is the most reasonable place to purchase the Century glycol. If you have Prime, the shipping is free. 

PNWtabber

@Verna -- thanks.  Order placed.  This forum needs "thank you" reactions 

Verna

You’re very welcome, @PNWtabber. 

tybladesmith

When I drained and refilled my 2018 320S system last year, turning the pump setting to 5 pushed the pg and air around the loop just fine, to get the air out and the tank level up to just above min. Maybe this is what NuCamp does since so many people find the pump set to 5 on a new camper?

Ron

I did the exchange this afternoon.  I made up a kit like "gregndeb" did, thank you, and pumped about 2.5 gals of new fluid through the system.  I did drain from under the trailer first though.  My thought was that it would be better to pump new glycol into an empty boiler than to try and move the old out with the new.  I thought that it might mix too much in the boiler if I didn't.  I ran the pump on high for about 15 minutes to hopefully remove any air bubbles.
It might be a couple more weeks before I can test the system though.  The thermostat does not go high enough to get the furnace to come on where I live.
The old glycol, 3.8 years, had more of a dark color to it than the new light lime green fluid.   Completely out of character for me, I managed to not spill anything!
Not an easy task, but doable.

ScottG

Great info, @Ron. Thank you (and congratulations)! Of particular note is that you did this on an S model; @gregndeb has a CS and had expressed some concern that clearances may be tight in S models. A couple questions...

1. Does your 2016 have the little cubby storage under the back shelf? Did you have a side panel to remove to access the glycol reservoir?
2. Did you use a powered pump (like gregndeb) to fill the glycol?
3. How much do you use your Alde? Your comment about the old glycol being darker is consistent with information from Austin at nuCamp. Are you able to test the pH and freeze protection of your old glycol?

Ron

ScottG,  my 2016 just has the plywood cover that has a couple of screw and lifts out to expose the radiator and the reservoir bottle.  No side panel.
I did use a 12v pump, the small one that the guy in the UK used.  Available from Amazon.  Cheap with a slower flow rate most likely, but it got the job done.
I have a total of 6-7 months of use.  It is kept inside of a garage when not in use.  I will save some of the used glycol and report back after I test it.

ScottG

Thanks, Ron. Sounds like your 2016 is configured the same as my 2015. I think the cubbies and side panels were added in late 2016 or 2017--I'm not sure how much those impact access to the reservoir.

I asked about Alde use because my glycol still looked like the new stuff after five seasons of use. However, I typically only run the Alde for a few minutes each day to make hot water. The only time it might get more constant use is for a quick late fall trip. The current wisdom is that degradation of the glycol is probably quite dependent on how much it is used.

JP2558

My head is spinning reading this thread! You folks are good!!

We do have a 2018 320-CS so access to the overflow tank is a bit easier than the other 320 models!

A few weeks ago I made the mistake of mixing/topping off my tank with Cryo-Tec 100 which was the wrong product for use with aluminum exchangers. I should have had Cyro-Tec 100AL - but even if I did, I believe I should not have mixed the two. The only redeeming thing is that I only added maybe one tenth of the gallon to the reservoir - so I'm thinking I did not severely compromise what is currently in the system. But to be safe I intend to do a (semi) flush and refill next week.

So I just purchased two gallons of Century TF. I intend to use gravity to drain the existing PG and then a hand pump to try to force the remainder out. I will then top off the tank to the max mark and turn the pump up to 5, and turn on the Alde 3010 and monitor how much remains in the overflow tank, and adjust accordingly. Hopefully this will be enough to remedy my earlier mistake.

This is the type of pump I intend to use. Anyone have any experience using these during their Alde maintenance adventures?

https://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Fuel-Transfer-Siphon-Pump/dp/B06XKHP8Q4/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=hand+siphon+pump&qid=1604075645&sr=8-6

ScottG

@JP2558, I purchased a piston-type hand pump for this job, for when I ever get around to it...  :-/

The pump you show seems like it is more for starting a gravity siphon. Whether or not it can generate enough pressure to actually move fluid through the Alde system is unclear. My sense is that it might be challenging. If you give it a try please post your review here.

JP2558

@ScottG - will do.

MadCityJack

Well, as a rank TAB newbie who had trouble simply reading the status of the glycol overflow reservoir of our 2017 320 TAB U, much of this discussion was very detailed requiring much tenacity to get through.   I had to skim some sections because my brain was a bit tired.  However, let me say, thanks to all of you for spending the time on this.  I too don’t know of many RV specialists who will deal with this issue.  I had three shops tell me they wouldn’t even try to work on the Alde and only one email response to my inquiry to 3 dealerships.   Let me qualify that I have a PhD so I have some basic smarts and tend to be detailed—nonetheless I had hoped that retirement with the TAB would be a refuge from such detail—perhaps a bit less of a challenge.  

It seems the very real practical issue is the lack of a dealership network with the capability to competently/completely service it’s NuCamp products—in this case the Alde.  Can you imagine your car dealership not being trusted to flush your transmission system—although the process is likely much simpler than with the Alde.  Clearly, the RV industry is in it’s infancy compared to that of the automobile.  Nonetheless, the problem is real and most owners need a solution.  Your proposed solutions are praiseworthy, but beyond the scope of the typical TAB owner.  I know I will find a working solution, likely what the factory allegedly does, but it seems a bit of a shot in the dark.  

BTW:  Any tips on how to read the reservoir?  I was thinking of putting a dowel in the reservoir and if i knew how high the minimum level was from the bottom, I suspect I could figure the rest out.

(MOD NOTE: Discussion of this last question moved here.)  

ScottG

@MadCityJack, I sympathize with your frustration regarding competent dealer service. I've contacted supposed Alde service centers regarding parts and have gotten no response other than to be placed on their marketing email list.

That said, you can probably appreciate that much of this discussion is academic. It turns out even nuCamp doesn't bother flushing the entire system unless the glycol is visibly deteriorated. Under normal circumstances they just drain what they can from the low-point and then add back to the reservoir until the system is topped back up. Evidence suggests the glycol lasts much longer than the recommended two-year change cycle; an owner with even modest skills could do this every two years and probably keep their glycol in tip-top shape with minimal effort. The more thorough methods described here can be reserved for the gearheads and those (like me) who tend to ignore those mundane maintenance tasks.  :-)

Of course the real issue will come when and if these units start needing real repairs. Fortunately, with the oldest units topping six years, there has so far been little discussion about Aldes breaking down. 

MadCityJack

ScottG said:

@MadCityJack, I sympathize with your frustration regarding competent dealer service. I've contacted supposed Alde service centers regarding parts and have gotten no response other than to be placed on their marketing email list.

That said, you can probably appreciate that much of this discussion is academic. It turns out even nuCamp doesn't bother flushing the entire system unless the glycol is visibly deteriorated. Under normal circumstances they just drain what they can from the low-point and then add back to the reservoir until the system is topped back up. Evidence suggests the glycol lasts much longer than the recommended two-year change cycle; an owner with even modest skills could do this every two years and probably keep their glycol in tip-top shape with minimal effort. The more thorough methods described here can be reserved for the gearheads and those (like me) who tend to ignore those mundane maintenance tasks.  :-)

Of course the real issue will come when and if these units start needing real repairs. Fortunately, with the oldest units topping six years, there has so far been little discussion about Aldes breaking down. 

Thank you for your response.  I recently inquired at the nuCamp Repair Center about this very issue and Austin replied, "Yes sir we use a proprietary pump system from Alde to fully pump out all old fluid. This insures all old fluid is out of the system & that there are no pesky air bubbles in the system to cause issues later."  He went on to say in a subsequent email, "The issue is that you can not drain even a third of the glycol out with out [sic] using a pump because of the low & high points in the system so this violates the point of flushing the system."  

So, with this advice, I am considering scheduling a visit to NuCamp in Spring to have this and other work done but the trip from Madison, WI is a bit daunting for this Newbie.   NuCamp Customer Service, i.e., Austin, seems more responsive and transparent than any dealer I've talked to.   It does seem that at this point in time, flushing the entire system, per Alde prescribed methods, is part of nuCamp's service.  

BTW:  I overfilled my reservoir getting the Glycol to the MAX line.  Turning on the Alde, I anticipated, would have lowered the glycol in the reservoir, but it raised it, so now I will be siphoning some of the fluid out.   The beat goes on...

ScottG

That's good info, @MadCityJack. IIRC it was Austin who originally said they only drain and refill unless the glycol was "bad" (I think the details of that conversation are buried somewhere back in this lengthy discussion.) Sounds like they may have changed their methods in light of what most of us already knew--pulling the drain plug only drains a portion of the glycol in the system (though--on the 320 at least--it's probably closer to half or a little more based on experience and system volume estimates).

I've heard of a turkey baster coming in handy for getting excess glycol out of the reservoir. Given how the glycol circulates, a little extra shouldn't hurt the unit in any way, but you probably stand a greater risk of spilling or overflow.

I was me who kicked your question regarding checking the glycol level to its own discussion. It seemed to be generating quite a few comments so I gave it its own billing away from this already bulky thread. It's one of the secret powers we moderators have.  ;-)   

[Deleted User]

Hi,  I've read every post in this very long thread and I found it helpful but also debilitatingly frustrating.  I did learn though that I could very easily test the glycol myself to see what its reading at by buying a refractometer and a PH test.  Well...you would think finding coolant PH test strips wouldn't be a 48 hour frustrating search and still resulting in a mis-buy of the wrong kind of ph test kit. I even called Acustrip today (they seem to be the king of all test strips) and I was transferred to an "expert" I went into GREAT detail about the kind of glycol in the T@B I explained every detail.  He tells me to order the Acustrip 1550 series strips, so I do and then I decided to download the instructions from their website in advance so I would be ready to use them when they arrived and right there in plain print it says the PH test only works on extended life coolant!  UGH!!!! The freeze point reading will work on both types of coolant, but I don't need that since I also ordered a refractometer. The strips were $17.95 so not the end of the world but good grief!

So I've probably spent about 10 hours of my life looking for coolant PH test strips and I can't find ANY that seem to be worth the paper they are made of and/or work on conventional (non-extended life) coolant.  If you use the wrong strips on the wrong coolant, you will still get a reading but it won't be right!

The refractometer arrives Thursday, but without the ability to test the PH I'm not getting a very good picture of the condition of my glycol.

Can anyone recommend a PH test strip for non-extended life glycol?

ScottG, I looked for the new thread on checking glycol to post this there, but I couldn't find it. 

Mellow_Yellow

Hi @TabbyShack - if the glycol in the Alde has not been changed on the last 2 years, it is time to replace it, regardless of the pH. 2 gallons of Century TF-1 isn’t expensive and is well worth the peace of mind of keeping the Alde ship shape. 

[Deleted User]

I would love to change it and had all intentions of doing it before the two year mark in April, BUT I can't find a place to get it done correctly  (using the fancy pump) close to me. My nearest Nucamp dealer is 80 miles away and so backed up with appointments they haven't been able to get me in. My go-to service location is only 30 miles away so it's a bit annoying for me to have to drive 80 miles but it looks like I don't have a choice.  So, I'm going to have to take it in for service twice between now and camping season starting late March. I will take to my local rv shop for everything (also need some custom work done) except the glycol then make another annoying trip 80 miles just to get the glycol changed properly....and this is me assuming even the dealer has the special glycol pump. They are closed through 1/4 so I can't ask.  I guess I really don't need to check it, but I wanted to see what it's reading at the two year mark. 

I realize I'm whining way too much but it's frustrating and I live alone so I don't have anyone else to whine too. 

Denny16

Our TaB400 went about 2.5 years before the glycol was,changed, did not hurt anything, so a few months past the two year mark should not be an issue.
cheers

Mellow_Yellow

Hi @TabbyShack. Most North American propylene glycol is non toxic. I drained mine into a 1 gallon milk jug.   Draining the Alde is surprisingly easy, especially if you have the hose clamp pliers. I would add that it is easier to access the plug if you tilt the trailer forward. Once it starts draining, tilt the trailer back and when it’s finished flush it with a cup of clean fluid before you put the plug back in and refill. 

Here is my recent post about the experience: https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/12546/question-i-drained-the-alde-and-the-drainage-was-pink-what-does-that-mean#latest