Alde Freight Train (Alde 3010 model)

Tabaz

I agree with ChanW - why wouldn't Normfun's idea work?  Those of us with the extra regulator would have to remove it and then use the manual valve.  This seems too good to be true.

sqrpeg

Agree that @Normfun's idea is very intriguing (and way quicker/cheaper). For the shut-off valve, would you use a ball or needle valve?  1/4-turn ball valves would be harder to dial in, but seem (at least to me) less prone to leaks. Anyone know if ball valves are OK for long-term use in a "partially open" position?

ChanW

Or maybe take a ball valve and drill a 2mm port through the ball, in the closed position.

DurangoTaB

Ball valves are designed to be on or off, gate valves and needle valves for flow control.  Adjusting every time you camp depending on elevation and noise sounds cumbersome at best.  None of these valves work for pressure control like a spring loaded pressure regulator.  It’s interesting we’re not hearing much from Alde Sweden or Alde U.S./Vancouver.

Tabaz

DurangoTaB brings up an interesting point.  I recall the Freight Train noise being louder with colder temperatures. Would having a manual valve mean we would have to get up several times during the night (as the temperature dropped) to further adjust the valve? That would be awful.

CanyonTravelers

Hmmmm ChanW, is the restricted hole in the Alde valve actually 2mm? The picture of the valve in this post looks bigger. I like the idea of a DIY valve....

ChanW

I thought I read that it was 2mm vs 8mm someplace, but I can't find that info again, so it might be wrong.

Edit: I found the reference. It was in the comment on the Airstream forum from 'Pete B55'. It looks like he's guesstimating it to be 2mm. Here:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f540/much-ado-about-alde-162472-41.html#post2077498

Maybe someone who's ordered the official Alde part could take a drill bit to measure the smaller orifice, before they install it on their system... (hint! hint!)

Drilling a ball-valve ball might be a little tricky, but I'd try it!

Standard disclaimer: don't try these mods without complete confidence in your abilities! A leaky propane system can cause death.

CanyonTravelers

I did find out that 2mm = 5/64" drill bit, if we are sure that the restricted hole is 2mm.

sqrpeg

@DurangoTaB and @Tabaz - I wasn't thinking I'd be constantly adjusting the valve. Instead, I'd just try to get the valve set so it approximates the opening in the Alde high altitude switch (and/or sufficiently quiets the rumble), and then hopefully forget about it.

@ChanW - you're a braver man than me. I personally don't have the tools or expertise to attempt to modify a ball valve in such a way that I'd trust it.

I looked at a 1/2" FIP ball valve at HD yesterday, and the label specifically states "Use only in a fully opened or closed position". I'm guessing that having the ball valve in a partially open position allows gas to enter the body of the valve, so you'd then be relying on the seal around the stem to prevent leakage. Note that drilling a new hole in the ball would result in the same situation.

To further muddy the waters, a guy from a local HVAC company was passing thru the aisle at the time, and when I asked him for an (informal) opinion he suggested that it wasn't really a problem - they often see ball valves used in this way and the stem sealing prevents leakage.  He did also recommend using a metering device to gauge actual pressure/flow - probably because fine-grained adjustments are difficult with a ball valve.

ChanW

a gauge is a good idea, but is it just the pressure difference that effects mixture? Isn't the rich mixture also effected by the 'thinner air' - ie lower oxygen content? So different high altitudes would require different sized ballvalve openings?

Another question for those smarter than I about combustion.... in the inevitable case when the ball valve or jet is left set for high altitude, yet you've returned to a lower altitude: Is too-lean a mixture going to burn too hot and thus damage the combustion chamber of the Alde? I speak from my experience in jetting my Honda 450 twin carbs too lean once, which burned a hole in the piston!

CanyonTravelers

I see no problem drilling the hole, we just need to know what size the smaller hole is.  When the mfg is saying the valve should be fully opened or closed, I would agree that in a normal use that makes sence, we are modifying a $15.00 valve for a specific application.  As far as forgetting to move it back to lower allitude, the way Nucamp is doing the pressure regulator it will be perminantly at a lower pressure.

db_cooper

At the risk of sounding even more ignorant (never stops me :-), how would not opening the valve fully at the propane tank affect the Alde?  I know it would also reduce the stove flame and affect the fridge.  Would the Alde just fail to run?

CanyonTravelers

I don’t think they are talking slightly closing the valve at the tank, but putting a gas valve in line with the Alde and closing that valve down to the Alde to eliminate the train sound. That idea came up as opposed to drilling the small hole in the valve before installing it.  The whole idea is trying to come up with a cheaper way to solve the problem instead of the $200 Alde valve (with shipping) and having to deal with the metric threads.  I think I got this right....

Verna

Camping at 6300’ and no Alde freight train. Whew!

ericnliz

@Verna, Take a SHARP left & come join the Pot Luck next Friday!

CanyonTravelers

Good point Verna....

Verna

@ericnliz, I’d love to, but the Verna-do list is getting quite lengthy at home. As much as I’d love to keep playing, I must now go play adult and work on that list......

Verna

I may try for 8,000’ tonight. It depends on how quickly I can leave here. 

ericnliz

@Verna, Just thought I'd throw it out there for 'ya! If your list is like mine....check one off...add two!

Sharon_is_SAM

Verna, do you have the high altitude regulator mod?

Verna

@SAM, no, I do not have the mod. I’m at 5300’ (give or take s few) and no freight train here either.  I’m taking my time going home because it’s going to snow again tomorrow!

I’m just reinforcing what others have said. The freight train doesn't occur on every Alde. No, I do not know why. 

jkjenn

Verna said:

@SAM, no, I do not have the mod. I’m at 5300’ (give or take s few) and no freight train here either.  I’m taking my time going home because it’s going to snow again tomorrow!

I’m just reinforcing what others have said. The freight train doesn't occur on every Alde. No, I do not know why. 

I didn't really get the freight train until above 9,000'. 

CanyonTravelers

Has anyone that purchased the Alde 4415-101 valve know which drill bit would match the restricted hole size?

Boulderjay

Holy Tacos!!  I just spent 3 hours reading this post. Experienced the "Freight Train" boondocking at Steamboat Lake (8100') this weekend in Colorado.  So embarrassing that we turned it off.  Looks like the cheapest and most effective fix is to follow DurangoJon's PDF.  Is that right? I don't want to decrease flow to my stove by installing a new regulator in the tub...(I have a 2way fridge so no issue there).

I assume I just call Elsie and order one?

This forum blows me away over and over again... Thanks to DurangoTaB,  and ColoradoJon and everyone else for 2 years of Sleuth/McGuiver work.

(Colorado Rules)

Sharon_is_SAM

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but don’t the 2018s have the Alde 3020 and the high altitude device already in place?

DurangoTaB

@Sharon_is_SAM...yes!

DurangoTaB

@Boulderjay... you might contact Spencer at Alde in Vancouver, WA first, just to check the latest thoughts and solutions.

Sharon_is_SAM

@Boulderjay, do you have the 3010 Alde?

Boulderjay

I thought I ran through all the screens in the Alde digital T stat and didn't see the high altitude setting... But I will get home and see if I have the 3020... that would make life a lot simpler!  

DurangoTaB

You should be able to tell if you have a 3020 buy looking at the label on top of the Alde.  The 3020 also has it’s own digital thermostat...