Alde Freight Train (Alde 3010 model)

gbell

for a high altitude test. try this: remove the Alde's white outside exhaust cover off, run the Alde while on Propane and while running put your hand over the exhaust tube to restrict air. Let some in but restrict it.  You should hear the freight train happen. It happens to mine at 6500 ft (home).  leave the cover off and open and the sound and vibration goes away.  I don't have a trip at higher alt til mid summer to really make sure.  Also I wrapped the tube under the seat, the freight train is also because of the vibration of the inner tube beating on the larger outer tube.  Alde serviceman agreed that air restriction at high altitude was the problem.    I also cut to fit a dryer vent cover that attaches with velcro to the T@B when at camp, so rain or wind can't come in now that the vent cover is off.  hope you find this works for you.

Nomad

fwillison - " think the problem must affect all of them" <- But it doesn't. Think that's the reason it's hard to diagnose. Why some but not most?

fwillison

gbell: I'll try that.  Since the problem is too rich a burn, increasing air (or decreasing fuel as we've been discussing) certainly seems like it could help.  One problem I see is that the exhaust and intake are both the same assembly, ie. the inner tube is exhaust, the outer tube intake.  The cap seems like it separates the flow of these, so that you don't just suck back in the exhaust fumes.
PXLated: Don't know why it doesn't affect all.  At this point that's a mystery.  It certainly does not seem that there is any compensation in the fuel/air ratio with altitude and this must affect all Alde's.  Maybe some people don't notice it as much?  I really don't know.

I found a service manual online that shows the burner.  I'm not knowledgeable about propane burners, but the pictures demonstrate a burner assembly (see page 13).  This assembly doesn't show obvious orificed jets, maybe it doesn't have them and works differently.  That could explain why it isn't a simple issue of changing jet orifice size as in other propane appliance altitude kits.  If it requires a reengineered  burner assembly, well, that might be why Alde doesn't give us a fix.  Just speculation.
http://www.leisurespares.co.uk/files/alde_3010_service.pdf

BTW, the vibration is not the real problem.  It is only a symptom.  The problem is the fuel/air ratio.  Anyone who thinks they fixed the problem by trying to quiet the vibrating flue pipe is mistaken.

Nomad

fwillison - True that some people are more sensitive to noise but mine sounds pretty much the same in Death Valley (below sea level) as it does at 8,000 feet. I think I would notice something described as a "howling" or a "freight train" sound :-)

TabberJohn

I found this on a UK caravan site: "Do not rely on gas heating at high altitude. LPG combustion and performance is impeded above 1500 metres by the Laws of Nature. [Alde] 3020 boilers in 2017 leisure vehicles have a High Altitude Mode on the control panel."
No details on what that mode does but I take it by the warning it doesn't necessarily work. Those pesky Laws of Nature.
I don't think a stock Alde is going to work well at high altitude without some type of altitude kit and a way to switch modes.

ericnliz

TabberJohn, Kinda like gravity!

fwillison

TabberJohn, I think a lot of people have gas heating, including propane, at high altitudes.  It needs to be engineered but it's a pretty simple problem.  The altitude is dealt with in residential, commercial, and industrial applications.  Even our Norcold fridge has an available altitude kit for it's propane function.
It's not really different than any other internal combustion process, including our cars.  The fuel/air ratio is adjusted automatically in our vehicles for altitude/pressure changes.
Plus the elevations we are talking about aren't exactly Everest - problems are occurring at 5000 feet and even lower.  

PXLated: Maybe your flue hoses were installed in a way that the vibration doesn't happen occur, but the rich burn still does?  If so, I would think you would still see soot at the exhaust port of the Alde, though.  

Nomad

Nope, no soot and no noise.

jkjenn

PXLated said:

fwillison - True that some people are more sensitive to noise but mine sounds pretty much the same in Death Valley (below sea level) as it does at 8,000 feet. I think I would notice something described as a "howling" or a "freight train" sound :-)

I don't have noise until well above 9,000' and then its not as bad as some describe.

fwillison

I don't know, maybe different regulator suppliers, faulty regulators or installation issues.  

Nomad

Gotta be something other than the Alde itself - Since a couple have solved it (or tuned it down) by monkeying with the intake/exhaust hose, I'm inclined to think it's there in the installation or something.

Ron

One explanation for the difference between different units could be the stock regulator that each has.  These are not precision made regulators.  I found that with one regulator vs, another I would get different flame levels on my barbeque and propane bulkhead heater.  They can also get restricted over time.  Different noise levels could result from a different volumes of fuel being delivered.  Some run a little richer, more noise.  Some run a little leaner, less noise.  Just a thought.

TabberJohn

fwillison said:
TabberJohn, I think a lot of people have gas heating, including propane, at high altitudes.  It needs to be engineered but it's a pretty simple problem.  The altitude is dealt with in residential, commercial, and industrial applications.  

I found lots of "high altitude" vented furnaces that run on propane, but nothing for a small boiler like the Alde.
The UK site mentioned High Alitude Mode for the Alde 3020, but no option to purchase such a kit. I posted a inquiry.

TabberJohn

Sorry, no retrofit kit for the 3010, but there is high altitude mode on the new model 3020 HE (high efficiency).
The 3020 is currently only available in EU/UK markets (220/230 volt).

jkjenn

High Altitude mode would be necessary for virtually all of the southwest - anyone above 3,280'. That seems a little nuts.

TabberJohn

Well, it does says "if burner runs unevenly".
The problem with Alde 3010 for the North American market is you may start off at 5000 feet BEFORE heading into the mountains.
Easterners have less to worry about because most of us aren't camping at the top of Mt. Mitchell or Mt. Washington.  
In any case it appears the 3020 HE model addresses the issue IF you experience the problem.
However, the 3020 is not available (yet) outside of EU/UK markets. The model I found was for 220/230 volts.

jkjenn

Seems like it's worth finding out what is different and if our unit can be retrofitted. 

dsatwork

If they know how to build one for high altitude, then they certainly know what the problem is with the 3010...logic dictates. 

Sharon_is_SAM

Maybe nuCamp should be installing the 3020 model?  

TabberJohn

It appears that the 3020 is a new model for 2017 that replaces the 3010.
The UK caravan site directed me to contact Alde in Sweden if I had any questions.

Sharon_is_SAM

Too bad, our new 2017 T@B has the 3010.  I guess PV needs to deplete their inventory.  However, going forward, if I was ordering now, I would request the 3020 model.

dsatwork

If nuCamp is addressing it now, they should be helping those of us that need the Alde at altitude. 

Verna

But I just sent a note to the factory this am. They're good.....but not that good

Verna

Here's the official word from nuCamp:

 "The 3020 for North American usage is still in the prototype stages and then we’ll have to jump through all of the regulatory hurdles that comes with any component developed outside of the US – even if it is a slight modification.  In other words, the 3020 is not available in the US.  nüCamp cannot purchase it.  nüCamp cannot even get their hands on it until all of the governmental hurdles are cleared….we will get a couple of the prototypes, but we are not allowed to sell them…and they are still not done yet 

dsatwork

My point is still valid that Alde has identified the problem and should come up with a workaround for the 3010 themselves or at least work with nuCamp by providing the information they clearly have identified. So that nuCamp can provide a workaround. 

Verna

Alde is manufactured in a European country. Regardless of whether or not they have identified a problem, they are not able to sell that fix to a US company without our government's approval. nuCamp's hands are tied. There is absolutely no sense is arguing this point. 

fwillison

I think everyone should understand that the problem with our Alde's is NOT the "freight train" noise.  That is just a symptom.  The problem is inefficient combustion due to improper air/fuel ratio at altitudes above about 3500 ft.
 
Ed sent me a regulator to install under the trailer to supply the Alde to see if this can be a "work around" fix.  I live in Tulsa at 700 ft, so I won't be able to test it until I get up in the mountains.  May be going to the Grand Canyon in a few weeks (about 7000 ft).  If I get a chance to test it I'll post.

If and when the 3020 unit becomes available I'll want to install it.  It's uncommon that I camp below 3280 ft. 

Tabaz

Marvin at NuCamp will be shipping out the supplemental Alde regulator to me today.  I'm hoping to get it installed before the weekend, take the T@B to Flagstaff (altitude 7,000 feet) and report back to everyone.  The additional regulator is to be installed on the rear frame cross member near the Alde unit.  It does not replace the existing regulator in the propane tub.  I'll take photos and post.

dsatwork

I'm glad to see that they have identified the issue and are making an effort to work with the affected T@b owners. One of the reasons that we purchased our T@b without an air conditioner is because we prefer to camp at altitude. In May we are going to Yellowstone, Sheridan,WY, Custer state park, Denver, Co, Dillon, CO, Durango,CO and Sedona, AZ. Pretty sure we're going to need the Alde for heat along the way.Excited to hear how this fix works for you guys.

fwillison

The regulator decreases the pressure from the standard 11 inches of water to 7 or 8 inches of water just to the Alde.  I don't think this is a real fix, but may be work around.  I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the proper fix is a change in jetting or orifice size.  The Alde seems to use a unique fuel supply to the combustion chamber, and I don't completely understand it.  Anyway, hopefully the lower pressure regulator works well enough.  Sounds like OutbackAZ may be first to install.  I look forward to seeing how it goes.