Alde Freight Train (Alde 3010 model)

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Comments

  • gbellgbell Member Posts: 87
    for a high altitude test. try this: remove the Alde's white outside exhaust cover off, run the Alde while on Propane and while running put your hand over the exhaust tube to restrict air. Let some in but restrict it.  You should hear the freight train happen. It happens to mine at 6500 ft (home).  leave the cover off and open and the sound and vibration goes away.  I don't have a trip at higher alt til mid summer to really make sure.  Also I wrapped the tube under the seat, the freight train is also because of the vibration of the inner tube beating on the larger outer tube.  Alde serviceman agreed that air restriction at high altitude was the problem.    I also cut to fit a dryer vent cover that attaches with velcro to the T@B when at camp, so rain or wind can't come in now that the vent cover is off.  hope you find this works for you.

  • NomadNomad Member Posts: 7,209
    fwillison - " think the problem must affect all of them" <- But it doesn't. Think that's the reason it's hard to diagnose. Why some but not most?
  • fwillisonfwillison Member Posts: 35
    edited March 2017
    gbell: I'll try that.  Since the problem is too rich a burn, increasing air (or decreasing fuel as we've been discussing) certainly seems like it could help.  One problem I see is that the exhaust and intake are both the same assembly, ie. the inner tube is exhaust, the outer tube intake.  The cap seems like it separates the flow of these, so that you don't just suck back in the exhaust fumes.
    PXLated: Don't know why it doesn't affect all.  At this point that's a mystery.  It certainly does not seem that there is any compensation in the fuel/air ratio with altitude and this must affect all Alde's.  Maybe some people don't notice it as much?  I really don't know.

    I found a service manual online that shows the burner.  I'm not knowledgeable about propane burners, but the pictures demonstrate a burner assembly (see page 13).  This assembly doesn't show obvious orificed jets, maybe it doesn't have them and works differently.  That could explain why it isn't a simple issue of changing jet orifice size as in other propane appliance altitude kits.  If it requires a reengineered  burner assembly, well, that might be why Alde doesn't give us a fix.  Just speculation.
    http://www.leisurespares.co.uk/files/alde_3010_service.pdf

    BTW, the vibration is not the real problem.  It is only a symptom.  The problem is the fuel/air ratio.  Anyone who thinks they fixed the problem by trying to quiet the vibrating flue pipe is mistaken.
    Fred and Nicole Willison
    Tulsa, OK
    2017 Tab S Max Outback silver/silver
  • NomadNomad Member Posts: 7,209
    fwillison - True that some people are more sensitive to noise but mine sounds pretty much the same in Death Valley (below sea level) as it does at 8,000 feet. I think I would notice something described as a "howling" or a "freight train" sound :-)
  • TabberJohnTabberJohn Member Posts: 588
    edited April 2017
    I found this on a UK caravan site: "Do not rely on gas heating at high altitude. LPG combustion and performance is impeded above 1500 metres by the Laws of Nature. [Alde] 3020 boilers in 2017 leisure vehicles have a High Altitude Mode on the control panel."
    No details on what that mode does but I take it by the warning it doesn't necessarily work. ;) Those pesky Laws of Nature.
    I don't think a stock Alde is going to work well at high altitude without some type of altitude kit and a way to switch modes.
    2015 T@B Max S (White/Silver) -> 2014 Ford Escape 2.0L (turbo, AWD, factory tow)
  • ericnlizericnliz Member Posts: 4,437
    TabberJohn, Kinda like gravity! ;)
    2016 T@B MAX S-aka: WolfT@B
    TV: 2006 Chevy Avalanche LT Z71 aka: WhiteWolf, or 1972 Chevy Custom10 P/U aka: SnarlingWolf
    Spokane, Wa.
    Eric aka: Lone Wolf  


  • fwillisonfwillison Member Posts: 35
    edited March 2017
    TabberJohn, I think a lot of people have gas heating, including propane, at high altitudes.  It needs to be engineered but it's a pretty simple problem.  The altitude is dealt with in residential, commercial, and industrial applications.  Even our Norcold fridge has an available altitude kit for it's propane function.
    It's not really different than any other internal combustion process, including our cars.  The fuel/air ratio is adjusted automatically in our vehicles for altitude/pressure changes.
    Plus the elevations we are talking about aren't exactly Everest - problems are occurring at 5000 feet and even lower.  

    PXLated: Maybe your flue hoses were installed in a way that the vibration doesn't happen occur, but the rich burn still does?  If so, I would think you would still see soot at the exhaust port of the Alde, though.  
    Fred and Nicole Willison
    Tulsa, OK
    2017 Tab S Max Outback silver/silver
  • NomadNomad Member Posts: 7,209
    Nope, no soot and no noise.
  • jkjennjkjenn Member Posts: 6,389
    edited March 2017


    PXLated said:


    fwillison - True that some people are more sensitive to noise but mine sounds pretty much the same in Death Valley (below sea level) as it does at 8,000 feet. I think I would notice something described as a "howling" or a "freight train" sound :-)



    I don't have noise until well above 9,000' and then its not as bad as some describe.

    2021 T@b 320 Boondock "Mattie Ross" | 2021 T@b Nights: 239 | Total nights in a T@b 455 | 2022 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Overland | T@b owner since 2014

  • fwillisonfwillison Member Posts: 35
    I don't know, maybe different regulator suppliers, faulty regulators or installation issues.  
    Fred and Nicole Willison
    Tulsa, OK
    2017 Tab S Max Outback silver/silver
  • NomadNomad Member Posts: 7,209
    Gotta be something other than the Alde itself - Since a couple have solved it (or tuned it down) by monkeying with the intake/exhaust hose, I'm inclined to think it's there in the installation or something.
  • RonRon Member Posts: 137
    One explanation for the difference between different units could be the stock regulator that each has.  These are not precision made regulators.  I found that with one regulator vs, another I would get different flame levels on my barbeque and propane bulkhead heater.  They can also get restricted over time.  Different noise levels could result from a different volumes of fuel being delivered.  Some run a little richer, more noise.  Some run a little leaner, less noise.  Just a thought.
    2016 T@B MaxS, 2018 Jeep Rubicon 4dr, Rural Scottsdale, Az.
  • TabberJohnTabberJohn Member Posts: 588
    edited April 2017
    fwillison said:
    TabberJohn, I think a lot of people have gas heating, including propane, at high altitudes.  It needs to be engineered but it's a pretty simple problem.  The altitude is dealt with in residential, commercial, and industrial applications.  
    I found lots of "high altitude" vented furnaces that run on propane, but nothing for a small boiler like the Alde.
    The UK site mentioned High Alitude Mode for the Alde 3020, but no option to purchase such a kit. I posted a inquiry.
    2015 T@B Max S (White/Silver) -> 2014 Ford Escape 2.0L (turbo, AWD, factory tow)
  • TabberJohnTabberJohn Member Posts: 588
    edited April 2017

    Sorry, no retrofit kit for the 3010, but there is high altitude mode on the new model 3020 HE (high efficiency).
    The 3020 is currently only available in EU/UK markets (220/230 volt).

    2015 T@B Max S (White/Silver) -> 2014 Ford Escape 2.0L (turbo, AWD, factory tow)
  • jkjennjkjenn Member Posts: 6,389
    High Altitude mode would be necessary for virtually all of the southwest - anyone above 3,280'. That seems a little nuts.

    2021 T@b 320 Boondock "Mattie Ross" | 2021 T@b Nights: 239 | Total nights in a T@b 455 | 2022 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Overland | T@b owner since 2014

  • TabberJohnTabberJohn Member Posts: 588
    edited April 2017

    Well, it does says "if burner runs unevenly". ;)
    The problem with Alde 3010 for the North American market is you may start off at 5000 feet BEFORE heading into the mountains.
    Easterners have less to worry about because most of us aren't camping at the top of Mt. Mitchell or Mt. Washington. :D 
    In any case it appears the 3020 HE model addresses the issue IF you experience the problem.
    However, the 3020 is not available (yet) outside of EU/UK markets. The model I found was for 220/230 volts.

    2015 T@B Max S (White/Silver) -> 2014 Ford Escape 2.0L (turbo, AWD, factory tow)
  • jkjennjkjenn Member Posts: 6,389
    Seems like it's worth finding out what is different and if our unit can be retrofitted. 

    2021 T@b 320 Boondock "Mattie Ross" | 2021 T@b Nights: 239 | Total nights in a T@b 455 | 2022 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Overland | T@b owner since 2014

  • dsatworkdsatwork Member Posts: 744
    If they know how to build one for high altitude, then they certainly know what the problem is with the 3010...logic dictates. 
    2017 Tab Basic S Silver on Silver with Sofitel Cushions....upgraded from 2013 LG 5W....Towed by a 2016 Sorento V6 AWD w/5000lb tow capacity. Dave S. married to Jen aka SanDiegoGal We pull a Tab but live in a 2014 Airstream International Signature 27 FBQ...Talk about embracing a trailer lifestyle.
  • Sharon_is_SAMSharon_is_SAM Administrator Posts: 9,460
    Maybe nuCamp should be installing the 3020 model?  
    Sharon / 2017 T@B CSS / 2015 Toyota Sienna Minivan / Westlake, Ohio
  • TabberJohnTabberJohn Member Posts: 588
    It appears that the 3020 is a new model for 2017 that replaces the 3010.
    The UK caravan site directed me to contact Alde in Sweden if I had any questions. ;)
    2015 T@B Max S (White/Silver) -> 2014 Ford Escape 2.0L (turbo, AWD, factory tow)
  • Sharon_is_SAMSharon_is_SAM Administrator Posts: 9,460
    Too bad, our new 2017 T@B has the 3010.  I guess PV needs to deplete their inventory.  However, going forward, if I was ordering now, I would request the 3020 model.
    Sharon / 2017 T@B CSS / 2015 Toyota Sienna Minivan / Westlake, Ohio
  • dsatworkdsatwork Member Posts: 744
    If nuCamp is addressing it now, they should be helping those of us that need the Alde at altitude. 
    2017 Tab Basic S Silver on Silver with Sofitel Cushions....upgraded from 2013 LG 5W....Towed by a 2016 Sorento V6 AWD w/5000lb tow capacity. Dave S. married to Jen aka SanDiegoGal We pull a Tab but live in a 2014 Airstream International Signature 27 FBQ...Talk about embracing a trailer lifestyle.
  • VernaVerna Member Posts: 6,878
    But I just sent a note to the factory this am. They're good.....but not that good ;)
    Verna, Columbus, IN
    2021 T@B 320S  Boondock “The T@B”
    Towed by a white 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 Supercab, 3.5L V6 Ecoboost “The Truck”
  • VernaVerna Member Posts: 6,878
    Here's the official word from nuCamp:

     "The 3020 for North American usage is still in the prototype stages and then we’ll have to jump through all of the regulatory hurdles that comes with any component developed outside of the US – even if it is a slight modification.  In other words, the 3020 is not available in the US.  nüCamp cannot purchase it.  nüCamp cannot even get their hands on it until all of the governmental hurdles are cleared….we will get a couple of the prototypes, but we are not allowed to sell them…and they are still not done yet 
    Verna, Columbus, IN
    2021 T@B 320S  Boondock “The T@B”
    Towed by a white 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 Supercab, 3.5L V6 Ecoboost “The Truck”
  • dsatworkdsatwork Member Posts: 744
    edited April 2017
    My point is still valid that Alde has identified the problem and should come up with a workaround for the 3010 themselves or at least work with nuCamp by providing the information they clearly have identified. So that nuCamp can provide a workaround. 
    2017 Tab Basic S Silver on Silver with Sofitel Cushions....upgraded from 2013 LG 5W....Towed by a 2016 Sorento V6 AWD w/5000lb tow capacity. Dave S. married to Jen aka SanDiegoGal We pull a Tab but live in a 2014 Airstream International Signature 27 FBQ...Talk about embracing a trailer lifestyle.
  • VernaVerna Member Posts: 6,878
    edited April 2017
    Alde is manufactured in a European country. Regardless of whether or not they have identified a problem, they are not able to sell that fix to a US company without our government's approval. nuCamp's hands are tied. There is absolutely no sense is arguing this point. 

    Verna, Columbus, IN
    2021 T@B 320S  Boondock “The T@B”
    Towed by a white 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 Supercab, 3.5L V6 Ecoboost “The Truck”
  • fwillisonfwillison Member Posts: 35
    I think everyone should understand that the problem with our Alde's is NOT the "freight train" noise.  That is just a symptom.  The problem is inefficient combustion due to improper air/fuel ratio at altitudes above about 3500 ft.
     
    Ed sent me a regulator to install under the trailer to supply the Alde to see if this can be a "work around" fix.  I live in Tulsa at 700 ft, so I won't be able to test it until I get up in the mountains.  May be going to the Grand Canyon in a few weeks (about 7000 ft).  If I get a chance to test it I'll post.

    If and when the 3020 unit becomes available I'll want to install it.  It's uncommon that I camp below 3280 ft. 
    Fred and Nicole Willison
    Tulsa, OK
    2017 Tab S Max Outback silver/silver
  • dsatworkdsatwork Member Posts: 744
    I'm glad to see that they have identified the issue and are making an effort to work with the affected T@b owners. One of the reasons that we purchased our T@b without an air conditioner is because we prefer to camp at altitude. In May we are going to Yellowstone, Sheridan,WY, Custer state park, Denver, Co, Dillon, CO, Durango,CO and Sedona, AZ. Pretty sure we're going to need the Alde for heat along the way.Excited to hear how this fix works for you guys.
    2017 Tab Basic S Silver on Silver with Sofitel Cushions....upgraded from 2013 LG 5W....Towed by a 2016 Sorento V6 AWD w/5000lb tow capacity. Dave S. married to Jen aka SanDiegoGal We pull a Tab but live in a 2014 Airstream International Signature 27 FBQ...Talk about embracing a trailer lifestyle.
  • fwillisonfwillison Member Posts: 35
    edited April 2017
    The regulator decreases the pressure from the standard 11 inches of water to 7 or 8 inches of water just to the Alde.  I don't think this is a real fix, but may be work around.  I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the proper fix is a change in jetting or orifice size.  The Alde seems to use a unique fuel supply to the combustion chamber, and I don't completely understand it.  Anyway, hopefully the lower pressure regulator works well enough.  Sounds like OutbackAZ may be first to install.  I look forward to seeing how it goes.
    Fred and Nicole Willison
    Tulsa, OK
    2017 Tab S Max Outback silver/silver
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